[WEC] LMP Future Regulations (was Le Mans EVO rules - now hypercar rules)

[S griffin]

Wonder if they can actually go through with them this time

[canaglia]

lmp2 and gt-am are backbone classes of LM and WEC, 40% of the whole LM 2021 grid was made of lmp2 cars... it's just a suicide to think ACO could get rid of lmp2, that is basically the most numberous and most affordable class of WEC/LM.
Lmdh will be lmp2 based, that's true, but I don't think there will be a lot of them in private hands if we consider that even audi is struggling to get a couple of new chassis... one year before the debut.

[PhilipR]

It is starting to look like this homologation requirement is counter productive - first Glickenhouse missed races to homologate their car and now Peugeot will not race Le Mans and it makes sense. And there could be more next year.

I do wonder if it made more sense for ACO to allow a 2 tier system, i.e Concept Registration and Homologation
Under Concept registration(I just made name up, can be called other things) - manufacturers are allowed to register their concept with the ACO and are allowed to race and make modifications to their cars until they can do final homologation at the end of the year, with the caveat that homologation should follow along the lines of the concept that was registered with the ACO - not a completely different car.

As such manufacturers get to test their cars in race conditions and the fans get to see more cars on track. ACO could even put a system in place where once you register your concept you only get a certain amount of KMs to test which you can split between races and private tests , i.e do more races and you get less tests or you do less races but more tests

This was just a bit of brain storming on my part but seeing that Aero numbers are fixed and the class is BOPed allowing manufactures a year to race and make modifications to their cars before final homologation will not increase costs dramatically and better to have competitive teams rather than teams that have homologated an inadequate car

[S griffin]

I do wonder why the rules are so complicated, it's not going to help increase numbers. I do wonder how far the Peugeot project will go.

Maybe that two tier system would be best, as it would encourage others to give a go. But I'm not sure the ACO will allow it, even if it would actually benefit them.

To be fair the numbers should start to go up now, but the series needs careful managing, as they don't want to put off more makes coming in

It is a shame we haven't managed to get a decent number of different makes in the top class the past few years, but now hopefully we will see more with the new rules. It would be a waste if it wasn't

[canaglia]

5 years homologation, single bodywork, limited test hours/sessions, more strict aero rules, less complex hybrid etc... were all made to prevent manufacturers going on a wild spending rampage that could potentially kill WEC on mid-long term as happened across 2014-2017 when audi and porsche left when both of them couldn't afford about 200mln€ a year anymore.

[PhilipR]

It is a sensible step as no manufacturer would be ready to spend big money anymore I imagine. I also think there could be a middle ground where we do not have situations where manufacturers delay their racing to make sure they are fully ready for homologation. Same situation could happen next year with Ferrari as well.

I am also a bit concerned with BOP - whilst I think it makes sense in GT3 racing, in top prototypes I am concerned will lead to one year a certain car being favoured and another one the next year. I do not want a situation like 2016 GTE when Ford and Ferrari where way in front and the others miles back - I believe the next best was the Aston that had trouble free race and was a few laps back. But hopefully they will get it right so we do not have this issue. I think wrong BOP is less of an issue in IMSA due to regular full course yellows bunching the field together - this seldom happens at Le Mans anymore

Also how will they balance LMH with LMDH - will LMH teams be happy to be competitive and beaten by cars that are much cheaper? Will IMSA or ACO try to balance in favour of their own categories? - I hope they get it right but it can also become quite messy too

[canaglia]

Consider that according to rumors of over 10 years ago, peugeot and audi were spending something like 80 -<100mln€ a year for their 2011 ILMC programs, which both of them involved US/china races and also a third car at LM, so I think at that time none between audi and porsche really expected to get to 200mln€ just few years later... things just went out of control because of extreme competition and f1-tier technology/development used for ICE efficiency and ERS.
Bop it actually makes sense because LMH use bespoke and more efficient engines while lmdh will use road derivated motors, so is reasonable that to have same stint length lmdh should use larger fuel tanks, and I think lmdh are going to be 20-30kg lighter as well to have a little compensation for lack of AWD, but in general this is a technical matter, I think LMH will be faster than lmdh for political reasons more than anything else.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by PhilipR

It is starting to look like this homologation requirement is counter productive - first Glickenhouse missed races to homologate their car and now Peugeot will not race Le Mans and it makes sense. And there could be more next year.

Would we have so many manufacturers looking to introduce cars if it was? Would we have been able to bring together the the DPi and LMH ?

Originally Posted by S griffin

I do wonder why the rules are so complicated, it's not going to help increase numbers. I do wonder how far the Peugeot project will go.

What’s complicated?
A new way of doing it, but complicated? Build a car that fits some performance criteria.

Originally Posted by canaglia

5 years homologation, single bodywork, limited test hours/sessions, more strict aero rules, less complex hybrid etc... were all made to prevent manufacturers going on a wild spending rampage that could potentially kill WEC on mid-long term as happened across 2014-2017 when audi and porsche left when both of them couldn't afford about 200mln€ a year anymore.

This is it.

It might mean it delays some manufacturers start a little later, but ACO and IMSA are trying to build something that is sustainable.

And who’s to say Peugeot would have been ready for Le Mans anyway?

And ByKolles are a red herring here. Why their entry wasn’t accepted is much more than what races they aren’t doing.

[PhilipR]

Originally Posted by Adam43

Would we have so many manufacturers looking to introduce cars if it was? Would we have been able to bring together the the DPi and LMH ?

And who’s to say Peugeot would have been ready for Le Mans anyway?

Majority of the manufacturers are going to LMDH which has a separate rule set to the ACO. I was mainly referring to ACO LMH regs where maybe allowing the cars to race before being homologated for 5 years would allow the manufactures to see what works and what doesn't before they homologate the car.

Peugeot might not have been ready for Le mans still, but having the possibility to race before homologating the car might persuade them to enter the race with at least one car just for testing purposes. Maybe this would have helped with low grids before everybody is ready in 2023.

In the end it is what it is, once 2023 comes around and all the manufacturers are ready to compete we would have all forgotten about this issue and enjoy the new era of endurance racing.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by PhilipR

Majority of the manufacturers are going to LMDH which has a separate rule set to the ACO.

yes.

I was mainly referring to ACO LMH regs where maybe allowing the cars to race before being homologated for 5 years would allow the manufactures to see what works and what doesn't before they homologate the car.

Point still remains. If it was more expensive you would have had Toyota at best.

Or get some briefly before coats run away.

It was a necessity evil.

Peugeot might not have been ready for Le mans still, but having the possibility to race before homologating the car might persuade them to enter the race with at least one car just for testing purposes. Maybe this would have helped with low grids before everybody is ready in 2023.

Yes they might and it is a disadvantage. I wasn’t disagreeing it is a potential disadvantage. Or that it wasn’t potentially effecting the current grid size, but to judge it and understand why you have to consider the whole.

In the end it is what it is, once 2023 comes around and all the manufacturers are ready to compete we would have all forgotten about this issue and enjoy the new era of endurance racing.

spot on.

[chernaudi]

Audi Sport LMDH/GTP program could be in trouble/postponed:

https://www-motorsport--magazin-com...._x_tr_pto=wapp

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Audi Sport LMDH/GTP program could be in trouble/postponed:

https://www-motorsport--magazin-com...._x_tr_pto=wapp

That's seriously disappointing, if true....

[canaglia]

can't say I'm 100% surprised, considering they already dropped IMSA program out of budget reasons and that audi main priorities are dakar and f1 engine development... at the end audi lmdh = a customer of porsche lmdh.

[TF110]

As of late or at least this year, the lack of news has given me the impression they're not near ready or the program is at a standstill. Which sucks if true.

[philipp]

I haven't heard anything about the Acura GTP....

Does anybody knows when they will start testing?

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by philipp

I haven't heard anything about the Acura GTP....

Does anybody knows when they will start testing?

Feel more confident about it appearing than Audi. Always felt like Audi was a "since you're going that way" kinda program. Might be lamborghini is feeling there's money cause they know Audi didn't spend it

[Mike E]

If the Audi program is canned I wonder if WRT will run a Porsche.
I guess they could run an R8 in the WEC when it switches to GT3.

[canaglia]

Originally Posted by Mike E

If the Audi program is canned I wonder if WRT will run a Porsche.
I guess they could run an R8 in the WEC when it switches to GT3.

multimatic barely managed to do 3 chassis for porsche and 1 for audi... despite porsche claims I don't expect to see a lot of private porsche lmdh, I actually don't expect to see anyone at all.
WRT has a business in their racing programs... I was expecting them running as audi work team only if they were paid by audi for them, but without that "factory team" status, I think they will stick in gt and lmp2.

[Mike E]

That's what I thought. WRT have done all the prep work to position themselves as the works Audi team so this would be a real disappointment.

[Tique]

Originally Posted by philipp

I haven't heard anything about the Acura GTP....

Does anybody knows when they will start testing?

I have seen about the Acura program an interview of Anthony Megevand (Customer Manger at Oreca) in december 2021.


https://www.endurance-info.com/auto/...nnes-de-succes


He was stating that both program (Acura and Alpine) were running well


Hugues de Chaunac (Oreca boss) has also said that the Acura ARX-06 LMDh should hit the track by the end of the first semester 2021

https://www.endurance-info.com/auto/...t-ferrari-lmdh

[Tique]

Originally Posted by canaglia

WRT has a business in their racing programs... I was expecting them running as audi work team only if they were paid by audi for them, but without that "factory team" status, I think they will stick in gt and lmp2.

WRT is a partner of Audi for years (more than 10 I think). If Audi is fair, they should at least support them for a semi-works program as Porsche was doing with Joest in the 80's

[philipp]

Originally Posted by Tique

I have seen about the Acura program an interview of Anthony Megevand (Customer Manger at Oreca) in december 2021.


https://www.endurance-info.com/auto/...nnes-de-succes


He was stating that both program (Acura and Alpine) were running well


Hugues de Chaunac (Oreca boss) has also said that the Acura ARX-06 LMDh should hit the track by the end of the first semester 2021

https://www.endurance-info.com/auto/...t-ferrari-lmdh

Thanks!!!

[canaglia]

Originally Posted by Tique

WRT is a partner of Audi for years (more than 10 I think). If Audi is fair, they should at least support them for a semi-works program as Porsche was doing with Joest in the 80's

The word "partner" fits better for Abt I think, WRT was involved with audi since fia gt3 years back in 2009 or 2010, it's a very solid team and it's one of officially backed teams, but as said I don't think they were aiming to be lmdh factory team of audi just for passion...

[Simmi]

New P2 delayed until 2025 - https://www.dailysportscar.com/2022/...d-to-2025.html

Probably sensible so they can churn out a load of LMDh chassis for a few years - and work out how to balance the classes.

[S griffin]

It makes sense. Better to get the top class right, so they know how best to work the class below it