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Old 19 Dec 2017, 15:34 (Ref:3788105)   #46
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steve_r should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridsteve_r should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridsteve_r should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Someone seems to think they are bigger than the sport.
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Old 19 Dec 2017, 16:04 (Ref:3788111)   #47
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playing devils advocate...if they can convince a couple of teams to go with them, possibly another engine manu, offer the sport via FTA and/or a reasonably priced streaming service, find tracks that F1/FIA has ignored and/or more races in the USA who here wouldnt watch the new breakaway series?

and its not so much about bringing others with them either...if Ferrari leaves would Merc and Renault be able to justify their budgets to their respective boards any longer? rather would they take this as an opportunity to pivot to FE...a direction they already seem to be investing in?

personally i dont think its going to happen but i do see the threat as legitimate...or at least legitimate enough that they will get what they want during the next round of negotiations.

anyways we have been here before and when it was FOTA i was of the opinion that while the teams may not be bigger then the sport they are certainly bigger then FOM and probably deserved our support over the sport itself.

but BE broke them...not sure Liberty has the stones to pull a BE.
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Old 19 Dec 2017, 17:02 (Ref:3788121)   #48
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Originally Posted by chillibowl View Post
anyways we have been here before and when it was FOTA i was of the opinion that while the teams may not be bigger then the sport they are certainly bigger then FOM and probably deserved our support over the sport itself.

but BE broke them...not sure Liberty has the stones to pull a BE.
But you do have to remember that the way that BCE managed to do that was by bribing Ferrari with the package that they have now. And when there was a further log-jam later on, BCE broke the unanimity of the teams by yet again bribing Ferrari to break ranks.
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Old 19 Dec 2017, 17:28 (Ref:3788126)   #49
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Originally Posted by chillibowl View Post
playing devils advocate...if they can convince a couple of teams to go with them, possibly another engine manu, offer the sport via FTA and/or a reasonably priced streaming service, find tracks that F1/FIA has ignored and/or more races in the USA who here wouldnt watch the new breakaway series?

and its not so much about bringing others with them either...if Ferrari leaves would Merc and Renault be able to justify their budgets to their respective boards any longer? rather would they take this as an opportunity to pivot to FE...a direction they already seem to be investing in?

personally i dont think its going to happen but i do see the threat as legitimate...or at least legitimate enough that they will get what they want during the next round of negotiations.

anyways we have been here before and when it was FOTA i was of the opinion that while the teams may not be bigger then the sport they are certainly bigger then FOM and probably deserved our support over the sport itself.

but BE broke them...not sure Liberty has the stones to pull a BE.
A devil's advocate response!

Ferrari is complaining that it doesn't want simpler or more standardized engines and wants to be able to put their own stamp on their power unit. So they would have to either adopt the current specification (probably the expedient path) or develop their own.

If they adopt the current spec, then that really doesn't solve issues fans care about. If they create a new spec, but don't want simple engines, then what manufacture would want to jump into that series given the risk that it might fail? The only thing that might work is for them to create a very simple engine formula that is less restrictive on design elements. But there is still risk that without a very proscriptive formula, this can result in a large amount of up-front research required to determine what the best solution is. Which is still risky for someone new to jump into.

Who would fund this series? You would need to setup an entirely new organization to run it. I would assume it would not get any blessing from FIA. I expect promoters will not be willing to put up any type of significant money to host an unproven series. If the TV is free to view, then there is really no or little money coming in from that. I expect it would be a large money pit for Ferrari in the short term (assuming it was successful at all). Would Ferrari shareholders approve of that?

F1/FIA could potentially be nimble if they needed to as well. If Ferrari tried a break away, the current series might make concessions to other teams to keep them. While Ferrari is looking to use the exit thread as a strategy to get what they want, any concessions to prevent a break away may not be in the direction Ferrari wants.

All in all, it would be a huge gamble (aka "build it and they will come") for Ferrari. It could all come crashing down. If Ferrari totally walks away from F1 and crashes and burns, they will have lost most of their bargaining power on re-entry to F1 at some later date. This broadly assumes that F1 would survive without Ferrari. IMHO it would be a hit for sure due to so much of the fans being Ferrari centric, but I think F1 would survive and come out on top if there was a break away series.

Personally I would love to see the new owners call Ferrari on this and use this opportunity to break the special Ferrari deal for the next iteration of the Concorde agreement.

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Old 19 Dec 2017, 18:24 (Ref:3788140)   #50
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If it's Altria the sponsor in fact (Philip Morris being part of it) wonder why not they could use Milka (chocolate brand) to advert in the cars instead...
Philip Morris = Altria. It's just a name change to isolate the tobacco portion of the business. They still own Nabisco - Kraft - Heinz.
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Old 19 Dec 2017, 18:42 (Ref:3788146)   #51
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a devils advocate response response then!

are Ferrari against a simpler engine per say or are they just not interested in being told what to do/want to dictate the terms of the game themselves? they could use any engine formula as long as they get to decide which one it is.

-so from a fan point of view, if Ferrari just said they wanted a new series using say V12 or V10 engines and dusted off some old designs, then that may prove more enticing to fans. either way if they leave the tifosi leaves with them and thats a bulk of the fans right there and little to no new r&d expenditures.

while that would also give them a monopoly on engine sales it would also create a spec series where the Ferrari A- team wins every year so for how long it could stay popular would be an obvious concern.

-in this day and age could the FIA really employ tactics preventing tracks and partners from entering into a new series. there is enough anti-trust stuff going on that they may have difficulty in enforcing such exclusionary practices certainly within Europe and the US....the question here then becomes who has the better lawyers?

i think there is possibility the FIA would buckle immediately...especially if the break away series gave the FIA a bigger slice of the commercial pie.

-arguably Ferrari and the potential for more FIAT IPOs may be all the financial backing they need. if you will, a self directed marketing platform so the series could be in a position to fund itself....plus they got that Philip Morris money!

anyways, i agree, its a huge gamble and probably just an elaborate negotiation tactic.

but that said, as a matter of principle im against 'ownership' so that means im with the teams on this one and with Ferrari currently being the most vocal of the engine manus they are taking the brunt of the criticism.

Merc and Renault also seem to have many issues (even the same ones as ferrari) with the proposed new engine direction and for the time being seem content to let Ferrari carry the water on this issue.

i do miss the days of Martin Whitmarsh's FOTA though as his level headed demeanor really set a constructive tone...Marchionne comes across as a bit of a bully so it is hard to be on his side....have to concede that point!

Last edited by chillibowl; 19 Dec 2017 at 18:57.
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Old 19 Dec 2017, 20:46 (Ref:3788171)   #52
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To your point, I think Ferrari could do a throwback simple engine, and I agree maybe all they really want is to decide what they want to use even if it is a simple engine. But even then, either they have a relatively open formula (which may require extra cost for anyone new who is joining to figure out what is the best solution), or they create a closed specification (which they say they don't want and pretty much replicates the current situation minus complexity).

I don't think FIA can employ tactics of the past. If Ferrari wants to start a series, let them have at it. Don't punish drivers, etc. I can say that FIA would still do what they can within reason to make life difficult for Ferrari.

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Old 19 Dec 2017, 20:48 (Ref:3788173)   #53
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Not so much a comment about Ferrari in F1-rather an observation about what the fallout might cause.Just as Bernie always bunged money at Ferrari to keep them onside,he also undermined sportscars when they gained support and manufacturers.If Ferrari were to apply even a quarter of their resources to a top line sportscar campaign they might achieve a proportionally greater amount of acclaim.They could almost certainly dominate the GTE category just by spending the F1 department's flower budget.Arriving at the top of more than one category of racing while spending much less money might appeal to Sergio Marchionne.With the slide in ratings for F1 over the last few years Liberty need to stop the rot urgently and losing the most historic name is no way to do this.It would also devalue a win in a Ferrari-free series for any subsequent champion.
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Old 19 Dec 2017, 23:03 (Ref:3788197)   #54
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Not so much a comment about Ferrari in F1-rather an observation about what the fallout might cause.
If Ferrari were to apply even a quarter of their resources to a top line sportscar campaign they might achieve a proportionally greater amount of acclaim.
With the slide in ratings for F1 over the last few years Liberty need to stop the rot urgently and losing the most historic name is no way to do this..
RBR/Aston Martin, Mercedes and McLaren all have a leg in the VERY high performance Roadable race car market and VAG (Audi/Porsche Lambergini) are players.
Could we see a resurgence of the 50/60s when sportscar racing was much bigger in terms of fan following than F1?
Might suit the Manufacturers when coupled with FE to develop and showcase their technology far better than the strangulation imposed by F1 regulations.
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Old 20 Dec 2017, 05:58 (Ref:3788255)   #55
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Ferrari are using future sporting and technical regulations as the reason for them wanting to pull out. But let's get real. It's most likely the $100M per year bonus which is under review being the real reason for them wanting to pull out.

Another thing I didn't like about Marchionne - is the way he finger pointed and singled out Ross Brawn as being "the problem" on FOM/Liberty Media's side. That was truly unprofessional. And unjust. Brawn has been a breath of fresh air for F1.

Ferrari have short memories. When Ferrari dominated F1 in the 2000's, who was it that was a lead figure at the team in that time??

I sincerely hope that Ferrari do leave F1. Would be a breath of fresh air.
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Old 20 Dec 2017, 16:39 (Ref:3788366)   #56
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I can't really believe that anyone who has an ounce of feeling for the heritage of Formula 1 thinks the sport would be better off without Ferrari.
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Old 21 Dec 2017, 06:43 (Ref:3788466)   #57
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I can't really believe that anyone who has an ounce of feeling for the heritage of Formula 1 thinks the sport would be better off without Ferrari.

Why so? F1 would be better off if Ferrari left IMO. If Ferrari don't want to be part of the future of F1, then leave. Are we as F1 fans supposed to hang on to the past - and Ferrari's apparent "heritage" just so they can dictate terms in F1? Are we to put up with the series being stale or even going backwards just to appease Ferrari??

IMO, one of the good things that could happen if Ferrari left, would be to distribute the extra $100M bonus Ferrari receives among the mid to lower end teams to help bring them up the grid, and in doing so hopefully produce better and much more exciting racing.

I fully agree with the below, by ESPN's Nate Saunders regarding Ferrari's threats. And believe FOM/LM should hold the door wide open for Ferrari to walk through. Enough of the games and favouritism.

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Undoubtedly, if Ferrari ever did follow through with one of its many quit threats, it would be a significant blow for Formula One in the short term. But the idea that somehow F1 would be unable to survive without the Italian team is ridiculous -- there is much more to the top level of motorsport than having two red cars on the grid every year.

F1 has been guilty of treating Ferrari with far too much reverence for a long time. It currently gets a ridiculously good deal for being in the sport. It gets paid (very well) just to show up and can veto proposals it doesn't like. All of that comes guaranteed regardless of where it finishes -- it has not won a title in a decade despite the favourable terms of its deal.

As for the idea that a title won in an F1 without Ferrari would lack value: an energy drinks company has won eight F1 titles in the 10 years Ferrari -- the team supposedly bigger than the whole sport -- has failed to win one. History has demonstrated that fans will watch F1 regardless of how Enzo Ferrari's team is doing. F1's golden era of the late 1980s and early 1990s also came during a barren spell, one that saw the team go 21 years without a drivers' championship -- that lack of success hardly diminished the value of the championships won during that time. The biggest star of that era, Ayrton Senna, became a global icon despite never once driving in its iconic red colours. If you take away its dominant spell of the early 2000s, Ferrari's on-track performances in the past few decades hardly warrant the mythology that always comes with the Maranello team.

Away from F1, Ferrari holds a very prestigious place in what is still a niche and elite market: selling supercars. F1's rule makers have unveiled an engine blueprint for beyond the 2020 season that, among other things, hopes to lure new manufacturers. That includes the likes of Aston Martin and Porsche, while fellow supercar maker McLaren uses F1 as the main platform for its own multifaceted company. As driver-turned-TV-pundit Martin Brundle pointed out in a tweet last week, nothing has the global reach of Formula One in motorsport and those other companies would gleefully step into Ferrari's place at the top table of the sport's biggest series. Whether Ferrari's brand would be affected by leaving is another argument, but F1 would not struggle to find willing replacements.

Red Bull has issued several similar threats to quit in recent seasons, all of which seemed as hollow as Marchionne's most recent declaration. Why? Because Red Bull would be foolish to walk away, and Dietrich Mateschitz knows it. None of its other projects comes anywhere close to the sort of exposure it gets from being one of the biggest teams in motorsport's premier category. F1 would continue without both.

Regardless of who lines up on the grid, F1 will always be the best drivers in the world driving the best cars at the best venues in the world -- if Ferrari doesn't want its brand to be a part of that anymore, Liberty Media should hold the door open for it to leave rather than be held to ransom about the future of the sport.


http://www.espn.com.au/f1/story/_/id...y-need-ferrari

A public vote here.
https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/o...errari-threats
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Old 21 Dec 2017, 16:55 (Ref:3788564)   #58
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One doesn't need to agree with everything Ferrari does to think that the sport would be poorer without its presence.
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Old 21 Dec 2017, 22:33 (Ref:3788604)   #59
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Any sport that so desperately clings to its past is pretty much doomed to become the past. I hope Ferrari leaves, or gets thrown out. Preferably the latter.

Likewise for Mercedes.
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Old 21 Dec 2017, 23:19 (Ref:3788614)   #60
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I fully agree with the below, by ESPN's Nate Saunders regarding Ferrari's threats. And believe FOM/LM should hold the door wide open for Ferrari to walk through. Enough of the games and favouritism.
I didnít read the article you linked, but I fully agree with the bit you quoted.

Would Ferrari be missed? Absolutely! But an exit would not have to be forever and if their absence for a period of time is the price to pay for the institution of needed commercial changes, then so be it. What would be unfortunate is if Ferrari leaves and F1 doesnít do the right thing when it comes to changes. Ferrari leaving may just allow another monster to rise up.

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