How much F1 espionage actually goes on and in what ways?

[Hugh Jarce]

OK so twin keels are out and we are already predicting copies. It's a bit like the new fashion styles on the catwalk. Within 24 hours all the others are producing them as well!

But, to what actual extent does industrial espionage go on in F1 - do you reckon?

I'm not just being naiive, what do you think, or if you work in F1 - what do 'sources' close to you know? No names and pack drill obviously.

I mean, when guys move on they take secrets with them - but to what extent? Just in their heads?

They must photograph each others cars and plot and digitise them - musn't they?

I guess they employ 'spotters' in the pit lanes, don't they?

Someone told me they analysed engine noise to work out rev and gear ratios?

Are employees encouraged to 'grass' for money?

I must admit when I went to a testing session at Silverstone last year we got inside one of the garages and when the lids came off there were some big lads immediately on view. Good job I had my spy cam secreted in my flies.

Any thoughts or facts - I'm fascinated!

[mansellmania]

Originally posted by Hugh Jarce


But, to what actual extent does industrial espionage go on in F1 - do you reckon?

I'm not just being naiive, what do you think, or if you work in F1 - what do 'sources' close to you know? No names and pack drill obviously.

I mean, when guys move on they take secrets with them - but to what extent? Just in their heads?

They must photograph each others cars and plot and digitise them - musn't they?

Any thoughts or facts - I'm fascinated!

I dont think you can just copy a thing and put it on your car to have instant succes.

These days cars are so complicated and thourough designed you'd need to rebuilt the specific part and test it for a few months in the windtunnel, is what patrick head once said.

On top of that the big teams test a lot and not everything is succesfull...lots of parts dont work and if they get spotted or photographed during a test or practise, a rival copies it and finds out several hundreds of thousands of dollars further that it doesnt work...

Im sure theres a lot of checking on what other teams are doing..ferrari found out via supliers of exotic metals that ilmor tested new types of alloy iirc.

I think the paranoia reached a height 2 years ago when all teams shut down their garages and it was bernie ecclestone who told the teams to stop playing hide and seek.

Wether guys take everything with them is a good question.
Ted chapski(??) dont knw his last name, but he was the top electronic guy at ferrari.. now he works at renault and, tada... their launchcontrol is the best of the grid.easily.
Then you have irvine who went to jaguar and really not much happened.

Not sure if there are other good examples.

[avsfan733]

this is probably totally sexist and horrible, but it seems to me that there are a lot of really hot woman engineers on some of the teams...most of the people see each other around could they be possibly hoping for a drunken slip of the tongue trying to impress a lady?

[Hugh Jarce]

Man avs - I wouldn't want to say that sort of thing where I work not if you didn't want to have to sew them back on again.

Watching last year, I was amazed at how quickly the aero changes were mirrored by various teams as was the Ferrari bargeboard.

The smaller teams must rely on at least nicking the visible technology of the big chaps.

It would be interesting to to what level of info, drawings and discs are allowed off premises.

[mansellmania]

Well true the small teams do test the stuff of the big guns.
But lets say ferrari has 30 changes from one season to the otrher.. the small teams can only test 1 or 2 things where sauber can test 8 or 10 things, toyota 15-20 but williams and mclaren could do the whole range, no problem.

Verstappen has said he did not want to drive for minardi this year as the only improvement they gonna have is a new engine cover

But wasnt that point scoring minardi the fruit of a 6 week design at dallara?

If i was stoddart, id order a new tub in a few days at that dallara factory again

All in all i think it is pretty marginal and down to how sophisticated your windtunnel is anyway nowadays.
Even patrick head says the change from single to twin keel has a marginal advantage.

[DaveOrama]

Can't quite remember, but wasn't one of the early BMW engines stole....uh, misplaced a few years ago.

[Mr V]

Not sure about that, although i seem to remember some of Renault, and Jaguars laptops going missing.

[Adam43]

Originally posted by Mr V
Jaguars laptops going missing.

well, I doubt that was down to espionage!

(sorry)

[Mackmot]

There is the very simple bit of espionage that goes on all the time in every class of motorsport. You get a driver that has driven for another team.

[Try Hard]

What about Mr M.Gascoynne? He has knowledge of a race winning car (reggie R23) and the jumps off to toyota. He'll have taken some info with him for sure, as there is no possible way of "un-learing" an information he may of had (bar brainwashing, but thats going a little far). Even with the enforced "gardening leave", he'll have still known what was in the pipeline at renault surely, and then be able to tkae these ideas to toyota, where their HUGH budget could test them to their hearts content....

Is this just me being cycinical, or quite close to the truth?

Ed

[Pitstop]

Try Hard - don't worry pal, - 'testing times' in the next few weeks.

Cynical - no, I don't think so - realistic? probably.

[mansellmania]

Originally posted by Try Hard
What about Mr M.Gascoynne? He has knowledge of a race winning car (reggie R23) and the jumps off to toyota. He'll have taken some info with him for sure, as there is no possible way of "un-learing" an information he may of had (bar brainwashing, but thats going a little far). Even with the enforced "gardening leave", he'll have still known what was in the pipeline at renault surely, and then be able to tkae these ideas to toyota, where their HUGH budget could test them to their hearts content....

Is this just me being cycinical, or quite close to the truth?

Ed

If that was the case toyota wouldv delayed the launch of the 2004 car and give gascoigne a few weeks to imply the R23 ideas.

But an F1 car has 20000 components and you just cant copy everything straight away.

Dont forget it took gazza more than a year to get renault a bit on the up.. he was more than once mentioned to be sacked mid 2001!

[Hugh Jarce]

True - but let's take a look towards the end of this coming season and the beginning of next to see how Toyota and Renault are doing especially if Alonso gets poached (not too mention other key technical people when they are out of contract).

My take is that Toyota will begin catching up and may well overtake them in 2005/6.

Toyota are in for the long haul so I'm sure like was the case at Benetton (as was) getting the infrastructure right (and personnel) will be MG's prority.

[DaveOrama]

Valid points, but Geoff Willis hasn't done much at BAR. It does take a year or two (and as far as I'm aware he hasn't attracted any other staff) to get into the new teams' design. Let's wait for the test times of the new car....

[deeks6]

Pretty complex issue, I would have thought...main point being that its all very well to know WHAT is on the car but a whole different kettle of fish to know WHY.

Something that might work well with Renault donk and box might be a load of old boll*cks with a BMW...

[Armco Bender]

Who's spying on Minardi then?

[Smokey 6 litre]

After a supprising midnight visit by Ron Dennis' to the Ferrari factory...

[Smokey 6 litre]

.

[Phoenix1]

Originally posted by Armco Bender
Who's spying on Minardi then?

The smaller teams are willing to take most risks and often by accident come up with better designs. Remember ground affects was an accident!! The first cars to run raised nose cones where people like Forti and Pacific, Tyrrell raced the large side wings which where banned after everyone else took them up. I'm sure some data might be passed across illegally but the limits of the F1 car 'template' is such that their is not to much room to play with, add in the safety cell and other features the car is half finished before you start. Minardi where often looked at because (sorry I can't remember his name) but a top ex-ferrari (now toyota???) guy moved to Minardi and was still as good there just with less money.

[Mr V]

Originally posted by Armco Bender
Who's spying on Minardi then?

I've seen Martin brundle ask Patrick Head on the grid at a race, why he was standing at the back of the grid and looking at a Minardi and he said that every team in F1 came up with good ideas.

Don't forget that it was Tyrrell who came up with the X-wings, which must have worked because nearly every team in the pit lane were using them at San Marino 1998.

[Smokey 6 litre]

Originally posted by mansellmania
If that was the case toyota would delay the launch of the 2004 car and give gascoigne a few weeks to imply the R23 ideas.

In an 'autosport' interview Mr Gascoige said it would be disasterous if he jumped in and pointed out what was wrong with the new car at this point.

[Try Hard]

I too doubt he'll have any major effect on this years car initially. i read the interveiw in autosport about that, and agree it's better to get the infastructure to work first, which is also why i belive renault will still be a top tema (for a few years at least). But towards the end of the year when he can start having an influence on development, then i think we could see some pretty decent progress from toyota.
The other point being is that reggie had a car with very good mechanical grip last year, combine this (MG will know why it did) with the undoubted windtunnel development toyota can run (as long as they go in the right direction) and you have a formula for a very good car for a very effective TF-105....

and in 2001 that bennetton was a pig to begin with, but did end up getting a podium by the years end.

(btw the minardi bod was gustav bruner, i think thats how his name is spelt)


Ed

[KC]

A lot of the teams will employ subterfuge to redirect a competitor's notice. By covering up a section of the car it can redirect interst away form an area left exposed and undisguised.

[Hugh Jarce]

Or in Minardi's case, getting Yoong to crash it each race!

I always think on these forums that people notice amazing things like Renault's flexible-moving bodywork last year.

So, if Ten-Tenths folks do and manage that having had a few beers, F1 teams must be carrying out sharper analysis with fully clear vision.

My guess is that the middle teams do to try and catch up and the big teams do because they have limitless dosh and will nick (or seek to ban) anything that may reduce their advantage.

Wasn't there some major hassle about people trying to spot how many pedals there were in a Mac not to long ago. Or was it a Williams. I seem to remember that people got a slap when trying to look on the monocoque.

[Adam43]

It was McLaren who had the three pedals. IIRC the best pictures came after an off or a breakdown and the car was stranded out on the circuit.