[BTCC] BTCC 2021

[Robshillito1990]

Originally Posted by redshoes

It's a long term investment plan. Hoover up any unused cars for peanuts; stick them in a warehouse; wait 20+ years for them to become highly desirable classics; sell them off for huge sums to eager collectors. Ker-ching!

They won't become highly desirable classics though. Just like the super 2000s won't.

[AnnoyedMoose]

Originally Posted by andyjr0999

With all the comments surrounding wasted driver seats and AG wanting to reduce grid sizes, has anyone discussed the possibility in the future of a points based entry system into the championship from feeder series?

I would much rather see a grid of 20 top drivers on merit than a grid of 29 where the additional 9 may as well be anyone in this forum.

It seems by a number of comments that this approach would be welcomed?

That only works if the drivers with enough points to qualify also have the budget. If the budget wasn't needed then the "problem" would sort itself presumably.

At the end of the day if 9 of the grid aren't of the same quality then does it really matter as long as they are paying towards the other 20?

[S griffin]

I don’t think the paying drivers aren’t that much of a problem either, the cream still rises to the top and there’s still plenty of top drivers who are up there on merit. And reducing grid size isn’t necessarily going to improve things. Look at 2005. The grid size peaked at no more than 17. Did we have 17 top quality drivers? Of course not

And before people go back to the 90s Super Touring era, yes we did have the top quality drivers in the manufacturer teams, but there were still the odd independent who paid their own way for the privilege of running in the series

[psq43]

Originally Posted by S griffin

And before people go back to the 90s Super Touring era, yes we did have the top quality drivers in the manufacturer teams, but there were still the odd independent who paid their own way for the privilege of running in the series

There were more than a few not quite top quality drivers in factory cars back then too!!

[antnee]

Originally Posted by S griffin

I don’t think the paying drivers aren’t that much of a problem either, the cream still rises to the top and there’s still plenty of top drivers who are up there on merit. And reducing grid size isn’t necessarily going to improve things. Look at 2005. The grid size peaked at no more than 17. Did we have 17 top quality drivers? Of course not

And before people go back to the 90s Super Touring era, yes we did have the top quality drivers in the manufacturer teams, but there were still the odd independent who paid their own way for the privilege of running in the series

Supply vs demand though. 2005 only had 17 drivers because demand was low. Ideally, we would be in a position where the team bosses have 4 or 5 people competing (with budget) for each seat. Then the quality goes through the roof.

[Alfisti]

Even in the supposed pinnacle of motor sport, or F1 as it's known, we have drivers on the grid because they have big fat budgets. They also have the necessary licence, so they have some racing acumen. That the "problem" exists at the top means it will naturally also exist "lower" down.

Dreaming of a grid solely made up of drivers of the quality of Plato, Neal, Sutton, Cleland, Tarquini, Menu, Rouse etc etc. is dreaming. Nowt wrong with dreaming as long as you can differentiate between dreams and reality!

[antnee]

Originally Posted by Alfisti

Even in the supposed pinnacle of motor sport, or F1 as it's known, we have drivers on the grid because they have big fat budgets. They also have the necessary licence, so they have some racing acumen. That the "problem" exists at the top means it will naturally also exist "lower" down.

Dreaming of a grid solely made up of drivers of the quality of Plato, Neal, Sutton, Cleland, Tarquini, Menu, Rouse etc etc. is dreaming. Nowt wrong with dreaming as long as you can differentiate between dreams and reality!

F1 Superlicense does require half decent results in lower formulae though.

It would be interesting to see how many of the 2020 BTCC drivers would qualify for a BTCC super license based on results in series like Clio Cup, Minis, Porsches, British GT, VW Cup, etc.

[porsche962fan]

Originally Posted by antnee

Supply vs demand though. 2005 only had 17 drivers because demand was low. Ideally, we would be in a position where the team bosses have 4 or 5 people competing (with budget) for each seat. Then the quality goes through the roof.

the 2005 entry list contained 4 more entries as "confirmed" yet they didn't show up , so would have been 21 entries

2 Yvan Muller FRA M VX Racing Vauxhall Astra Sport Hatch Confirmed
6 Colin Turkington GBR M VX Racing Vauxhall Astra Sport Hatch Confirmed
88 Gavin Smith IRE M VX Racing Vauxhall Astra Sport Hatch Confirmed
11 Jason Plato GBR M Seat Sport UK Seat Toledo E Confirmed
12 James Pickford GBR M Seat Sport UK Seat Toledo E Confirmed
57 Luke Hines GBR M Seat Sport UK Seat Toledo E Confirmed
5 Matt Neal GBR I Team Dynamics Honda Integra Confirmed
8 Dan Eaves GBR I Team Dynamics Honda Integra Confirmed
10 James Kaye GBR I Synchro Motorsport Honda Civic Type-R Confirmed
21 Rob Collard GBR I West Surrey Racing MG ZS Confirmed
22 TBA I West Surrey Racing MG ZS Confirmed
77 Richard Williams GBR I HPI Racing with Friends Reunited Lexus IS200 E Confirmed
78 Ian Curley GBR I HPI Racing with Friends Reunited Lexus IS200 E Confirmed
23 Mark Proctor GBR I Fast-Tec Motorsport Vauxhall Astra Coupé Confirmed
33 TBA I Team Firstserve Group Honda Civic Type-R E Confirmed
9 Tom Chilton GBR I Arena Motorsports Honda Civic Type-R Confirmed
99 TBA I Arena Motorsports Honda Civic Type-R Confirmed
15 TBA I GA Motorsport Alfa Romeo 156 E Confirmed
82 Fiona Leggate*1 GBR I Tech-Speed Motorsport Vauxhall Astra Coupe E Likely
25 Gareth Howell*3 GBR I Team Halfords Honda Integra Confirmed
44 Andy Neate*4 GBR I Team Nuts with Daniels Motorsport Vauxhall Astra Coupe Confirmed


http://www.btccpages.com/2005/driv.php

[billy bleach]

Originally Posted by psq43

There were more than a few not quite top quality drivers in factory cars back then too!!

Such as who?

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by billy bleach

Such as who?

Just look at the entry lists from those seasons, and quite a few names stand out who never troubled the podium...

[billy bleach]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Just look at the entry lists from those seasons, and quite a few names stand out who never troubled the podium...

“In those days” the car was as important as the pilot. However to say there were average drivers in works cars in plain wrong aside from the odd “guest drive”. Radisitch , Mansell , Robertson ( Indy lite Champion) never had a prayer in the Reynard Mondeo but they were still top Draw. Can’t think of a single Factory pay driver

[andyjr0999]

Originally Posted by antnee

Supply vs demand though. 2005 only had 17 drivers because demand was low. Ideally, we would be in a position where the team bosses have 4 or 5 people competing (with budget) for each seat. Then the quality goes through the roof.

I totally agree, supply against demand. Reducing the grid size could potentially free up sponsors for the better drivers. If sponsors want to get on the grid, then they will.

[psq43]

Originally Posted by billy bleach

Such as who?

Steve Robertson never really got out of the gravel or panel beaters for one.

As mentioned, just scan the entry/results list for the 90s. A fair few didn't make much of an impact.

[billy bleach]

Originally Posted by psq43

Steve Robertson never really got out of the gravel or panel beaters for one.

As mentioned, just scan the entry/results list for the 90s. A fair few didn't make much of an impact.

Steve Robertson was an Indy lights Champion and F3 front runner - I cannot see one full time factory driver in ST that was average

[Overboost]

Originally Posted by billy bleach

Steve Robertson was an Indy lights Champion and F3 front runner - I cannot see one full time factory driver in ST that was average

Given the car he had Simoni wasn't great, only won one race in a dominant car, didn't see out his 2nd season.

[Craner Curves]

Two points. 1: Why are people getting outraged and personally offended by the drivers on the current grid? It's not as if they're spending YOUR money is it?

2. Why on earth are we talking about Super Blooming Touring? It's been 21 years! I've been here for 17 years now and still people are yearning for a short-lived era which will never return. Enjoy what we have now, because we'll be watching vacuum cleaners racing in 10 years!

[AnnoyedMoose]

Originally Posted by andyjr0999

I totally agree, supply against demand. Reducing the grid size could potentially free up sponsors for the better drivers. If sponsors want to get on the grid, then they will.

Not sure what you mean by "free up sponsors". Sounds like you're saying some sponsors are backing 2nd tier drivers but if those drivers weren't there they would back 1st tier ones? If they wanted to back better drivers they could do that now, nothing stopping them.

[S griffin]

Originally Posted by Craner Curves

Two points. 1: Why are people getting outraged and personally offended by the drivers on the current grid? It's not as if they're spending YOUR money is it?

Well said! I bet plenty of us on here, if they had the means and the money, would love to compete in the series. Fair play to those paying their way to fulfil their dream

[Craner Curves]

Originally Posted by AnnoyedMoose

Not sure what you mean by "free up sponsors". Sounds like you're saying some sponsors are backing 2nd tier drivers but if those drivers weren't there they would back 1st tier ones? If they wanted to back better drivers they could do that now, nothing stopping them.

Exactly!

[Alfisti]

Originally Posted by Craner Curves

Two points. 1: Why are people getting outraged and personally offended by the drivers on the current grid? It's not as if they're spending YOUR money is it?

2. Why on earth are we talking about Super Blooming Touring? It's been 21 years! I've been here for 17 years now and still people are yearning for a short-lived era which will never return. Enjoy what we have now, because we'll be watching vacuum cleaners racing in 10 years!

Nah, the environmentalists will have succeeded in banning cars and be well on the way to getting vacuum cleaners banned by then. It'll be scrubbing brushes and pails of water. First to scrub a nice 10 yard shine down Hanger Straight wins. Naturally helmets will have been replaced with hair curlers, fire suits with pinafores and there'll be a mandated fag break.

For those back in the past go and read this on Autosport. Good article on the post super touring era, covers my favourite ever BTCC car and has lots of input from Matt Neal:

https://www.autosport.com/btcc/news/...ll-astra-coupe

[Alfisti]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Well said! I bet plenty of us on here, if they had the means and the money, would love to compete in the series. Fair play to those paying their way to fulfil their dream

Too bloody right! Getting round the first lap ahead of the Doctors car would be my target!

I'd get sponsorship off a firm of ambulance chasing solicitors...

[Moneyseeker]

Personally, I think we should acknowledge and appreciate anyone who can either earn sufficient money in their business career to be able to spend £300k per year on their racing or generate it through pure 3rd party commercial sponsorship.

As someone who has to do this for a living, I can't tell you how hard achieving either of the above actually is, so perhaps some of the comments should bear that in mind when judging who should and shouldn't be on the grid.

Motorsport has never particularly had a grid of anything comprised of THE best of the best, there has always been an element of money over star quality in every series.

[CarfanLUFC]

Originally Posted by Overboost

Given the car he had Simoni wasn't great, only won one race in a dominant car, didn't see out his 2nd season.

Strange one Simoni, he had plenty of speed but not the race craft. I'm pretty sure though that 1994 was the first time he'd ever sat in a Touring Car and was up against a teammate that had a full season already in an Alfa in Italy and had done well.

He was always going to be 2nd best to Tarquini but also became embroiled in some silly incidents. Seemed to disappear a bit after he left Alfa midway through 1995.

Shows how good Tarquini was as he out scored both Simoni and Warwick (who did a full season) having only done about a 3rd of the races.

James Kaye was the one that disappointed me. I thought he did a decent job in the 2nd hand Toyota's and then his 94 Total cup win seemed to set him great for his big chance in the new Honda. It just never clicked for him though in the works drive.

It would have also been interesting to see a works team take a chance on Lee Brookes, he was impressive as a privateer but of course ended up in 98 and 99 rattling around in a used Accord that was held together by Marshmallows, shame.

[touringlegend]

Article in Autosport about Team Parker Racing leaving the BTCC. Interesting they were as far as adding up the sums on building and running Alfa Romeos.

https://www.autosport.com/btcc/news/...l-be-hort-term

[Alfisti]

The Giulia, a car which Rob Austin and Simon Belcher dismissed as having too long a wheelbase to be a good choice in BTCC. I agree with Rob and Simon on that one, it's bigger than the CC and the 3 Series.