IMSA / ACO Driver Ratings

[Rodger Davies]

Hi,

I didn't want the other threads to be clogged up with these discussions, but seeing as we have the new rankings for both series, I thought we should have a place to discuss.

ACO: http://www.lemans.org/wpphpFichiers/...tification.pdf
IMSA: http://www.imsa.com/sites/default/fi...20%2314-28.pdf

Now these are always going to be controversial. They're either subjective, and everyone's opinion differs, or based on history, which can be misleading depending on what is given prominence.

Now, for a start, I don't understand why there are four categories in each. The only time I think there's any difference between bronze and silver or gold and platinum is in the WEC P1 category, and I'm sure they'd make a 'readjustment' should a bronze driver actually want a P1 drive. Surely a Pro or Am system would work fine? Or would we need a 'Young Pro' and 'Veteran Pro' category? At the moment, several of these junior drivers seem to be classed the same as an amateur, which opens up the classes to exploitation.

In the IMSA ones, there was much consternation about how the latest changes affect the careers of certain drivers, ones who have been moved from silver to gold. Personally, I agree with DHH's twitter assertion that if a 'career' is affected, then the silver status isn't apt anyway. Personally, I agree with the majority of changes that IMSA have made - Asenbach and Cosmo are professional drivers, for instance - although there are still some to be looked at. As for the Gold/Platinum distinction, this is where I cannot fathom some decisions (N24 and Porsche Supercup winners 'gold', Indycar rent-a-rides 'Platinum), but this doesn't really affect anything, so it's of little bother.

I notice, in particular, that two of last year's P2 lineups from Le Mans would now be ineligible (#26, #42), by the ACO rules, but all GT-Am lineups could carry over.

So, if you'd like to discuss individual rankings or the system in general, let's hear your viewpoint.

(Oh, and I hate that a category is limited to rankings anyway, but that's probably a whole other debate...)

[Starfish Primer]

There shouldn't be any distintion between Ams and Pros. the only restriction would be certain drivers to not be allowed to run on a LMP1.

If an Am wants to drive, he can do it, but not having a seat reserved for them.

[Aurora]

Originally Posted by Starfish Primer

There shouldn't be any distintion between Ams and Pros. the only restriction would be certain drivers to not be allowed to run on a LMP1.

If an Am wants to drive, he can do it, but not having a seat reserved for them.

I don't think this is about keeping Am drivers out of prototypes, it's more about stopping all Pro pairings from cleaning up in Pro/Am classes.

[Rodger Davies]

I agree with you SF, but unfortunately that's not the world we live in at the moment it seems.

[Koenigsegg]

Pro-Am classes is all about having enough cars on track to organise a race/series. The Am drivers bring the money to the track and the series. Without a class for them, they have no chance at winning anything. I'm pretty sure everyone who races want to win or at least be competitive. If Am drivers have no chance at winning something, they won't race. So to have more cars on track, they need special Pro-Am classes.

[bella]

does anyone have a list of guidelines for categorisation?

and did the aco ones apply to the elms last year or do they have their own system?

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by bella

does anyone have a list of guidelines for categorisation?

and did the aco ones apply to the elms last year or do they have their own system?

Guidelines?

I'm not laughing at you, but there are no guidelines, and it seems rather arbitrary.

[bella]

i'm sure i read the elms sporting regs (had insomnia, did the job cause i fell asleep about 4 pages in) and they had some broad guidelines on driver rankings there. it was interesting to look at their entry list and see how they'd been rather generous in some cases and deliberately sandbagged in others.

[Victor_RO]

ELMS uses the ACO driver rankings. And there are rough guidelines about driver classification written into the ACO sporting regulations, regarding age, past performances, series the driver has competed in etc., but the end result is at the classification people's discretion.

[Rodger Davies]

There definitely are guidelines of sorts depending on what people have raced, how they did and when they did it. In fact, I believe that when IMSA were looking at doing their own system, they specifically referred to doing away with the guidelines and doing it based upon their own judgement.

In fact, it is a bit subjective but here is the FIA GT formula:

A (or Platinum)
A professional driver generally recognised as a well-known driver on the international scene, under the age of 55, and satisfying at least one of the following criteria:

• has held a Super Licence (for Formula One),
• has won the Le Mans 24 Hours outright,
• has been a Works Driver, paid by a car manufacturer;
• has finished in the top 10 in the general classification in F3000, CART/Champcar, IRL or GP2;
• has finished in the top 6 in the general classification of an F3 international series (British/EuroF3) or major international singleseater Championship (Example : Nissan World Series)
• is a driver whose performances and achievements, despite not being covered by one of the definitions above, may be considered as professional by the Bureau.

B (or Gold)
A semi-professional driver in international series or who has distinguished himself in national Championships and satisfying at least one of the following criteria:

• driver satisfying the criteria of the A category (platinum) but aged 55 to 59;
• has finished in the top 3 in the general classification of a secondary international singleseater series (A1 GP, Renault V6, FR2000 international…);
• has finished in the top 3 in the general classification of a national single-seater series (F3, FR2000…);
• has won an entry level single-seater series (FFord, F-BMW, F-Zip, Autosport Academy…);
• has finished in the top 3 in the general classification of the Porsche Supercup;
• has won a national or international series organised by a manufacturer (Porsche, Seat, Peugeot, Renault...);
• is a driver whose performances and achievements, despite not being covered by one of the definitions above, may be considered as Gold by the Bureau.

C (or Silver)
An amateur driver satisfying at least one of the following criteria:

• driver aged under 30 and not satisfying the criteria of categories A (Platinum) and B (Gold).
• driver satisfying the criteria of the platinum category but aged 60 or over;
• driver who has finished in 1st place in the general classification of national Championships or international series in association with a professional driver;
• driver who has won a non-professional drivers’ series (Ferrari Challenge, Maserati Trophéo, Lamborghini Supertrophy…);
• driver who has competed in a single seater-series for a full season.

D (or Bronze)
An amateur driver. Any driver who was over 30 years old when his first licence was issued, and who has little or no single-seater experience.

[kyoung]

Get rid of all classifications, Ams should just be happy they get to compete with the Pros. What is the difference between an Am and a Pro anyway; pure talent, time spent practicing to get better? And why would you want to hamstring other teams because of a lack of ability or motivation on an Ams part to improve their game? Plus there is too much opportunity for sandbagging, it just introduces more controversy, and there is already enough of that with performance balanced cars. Racing is a competition, not a preschool drawing class where everyone receives a blue ribbon, get better or go home. And before you say it, if the money men want to take the ball and go home because they cannot compete at the highest level so be it.

[Victor_RO]

As far as I'm aware, the FIA GT classification criteria that Rodger posted above are 99% identical to the ones used by the ACO.

[NaBUru38]

I'd love United SportsCar to have around 40 all-pro entries only. But in 2014 there's less than 25. So they have to allow pro-am entries to compete the field.

Now, amateurs wouldn't compete if they must run in the same class as all-pro entries. So they have to include two pro-am classes.

[Danske]

The IMSA rules for driver classification are in Attachment 11 of the Sporting Rules. Just a quick paste to compare Platinum:

11.2. Platinum-
11.2.1. Is a Professional Driver generally recognized as well known in International series and satisfying at
least one of the following criteria:
A. is under the age of 55;
B. has held a Super License (Formula One);
C. has won the Le Mans 24 Hours in the overall position;
D. has been a Works Driver paid by a car manufacturer;
E. has finished in the top 5 in the Championship in F3000, ChampCar/CART, IndyCar, GP2,
Grand-Am Rolex series (DP only), European Le Mans Series (LMP1 or GT only) , American Le
Mans Series (P1 or GT only);
F. has finished in the Top 5 in the Championship of an F3 international series (British/Euro F3) or
a major international single-seater championship (Example: World Series by Renault);
G. is a Driver whose performances and achievements, despite not meeting one of the definitions
above, may be considered as Platinum by IMSA.

[Mike Hedlund]

Originally Posted by NaBUru38

I'd love United SportsCar to have around 40 all-pro entries only. But in 2014 there's less than 25. So they have to allow pro-am entries to compete the field.

Now, amateurs wouldn't compete if they must run in the same class as all-pro entries. So they have to include two pro-am classes.

A lot of the Am's would still compete, but you're correct.. the grid would be smaller without Pro-Am classes.

The thing that most of us "Ams" get ****ed off over is the sanctioning body not properly enforcing the requirements. If you're going to make it Pro-Am, make sure there's Am's in there... not Pro's masquerading as "Ams" so they can find a way into the race.

IMO, if they can't enforce the regulations then they should do away with them.

-mike

[Rodger Davies]

Hmm, I'm guessing they let 'E' slip a bit, I can think of some (JC France, Chris McMurray, Tony Burgess, Eric Lux, Piergiuseppe Perazzini and others) that would be made Platinum by that logic but just aren't, so that's where common sense prevails.

Just silver is a bit of a grey (!) area, especially for young drivers who haven't done much in single seaters but don't have another career. Are they 'pro' or 'am', because at the moment there are a group who are joining as silver drivers because they are too young/inexperienced to have met the other criteria.

[bella]

i agree with you that silver is a grey (nice pun, btw) area for the young drivers who clearly have nothing better to do than be a racing driver. i think there should be a requirement for a season in one of the big powerful single seaters such as gp2/fr3.5 before a driver can be considered a "pro".

on the other hand, having these quick but relatively inexperienced drivers be classed as silver stops them being used as ringers for bonafide "am" bronze drivers, which seems to be what mike is talking about?

i agree with mike about enforcement and sticking to the rules though. they actually seem to cover most of the concerns anyone has expressed so far in the guidelines...

[Mike Hedlund]

Originally Posted by bella

on the other hand, having these quick but relatively inexperienced drivers be classed as silver stops them being used as ringers for bonafide "am" bronze drivers, which seems to be what mike is talking about?

No, Silver and Bronze are the same thing.. at least in North America. That's why you have career "Pros" trying to maintain their Silver status so they can keep employed.

That's all fine, I'm not trying to take away employment for anyone... but for them to be racing dentists and lawyers is just ridiculous. Of course, most fans don't care or understand the nuances of the rules so it doesn't really effect the show.. which is why most people won't talk about it. Especially if there's enough uber-wealthy gentleman drivers (or countries giving their "Ams" money for motorsport...) that don't mind abusing the system and footing the bill to win these "Pro-Am" classes and put cars on the grid.

-mike

[bella]

apologies, thanks for the correction, i think i'm a season behind.

is there a simple solution to rankings so that a greater percentage of people can follow the logic, or is it something that's best dealt with behind the scenes?

[NaBUru38]

The answer could be to enforce a lap time limit to amateurs. If they do faster laps than 105% of the polesitter or so, they get a drive through.