[Official] Belgian Grand Prix 2021: Grand Prix Weekend Thread - Round 12 of 22

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Except the current cars don’t have ground effect.

Really????

The majority of the aero is underneath the car!

[Taxi645]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

It seems that Vettel thinks that the rear diffuser's ground effect is part of the problem. Does this mean the increase in ground effect in future regulations will make this worse? Or is it because the ground effect is so focused at the rear currently that the problem goes away when the concentration moves forward?

I think that are a couple of elements with regards to visibility:

1 The width of the tyre.
2 The ground effect
3 The amount of turbulence/energy in the air behind the car.

If we look at this generation of cars of course they have wide tires so that doesn't help. Also the airflow behind the car is very high in turbulence/energy which I can imagine does contribute to turning the large amounts spray of those wide tires into a much finer "mist" that is much harder to look through and also doesn't fall back down as quickly.

If we compare that to next years cars, yes there will be more ground effect, but the airflow is designed to be less turbulent/high energy to not the disturb the car behind. This might help prevent the finer droplets from forming which stay suspended longer in the air and negatively influence visibility so much. We will have to wait and see.

What will not help in wet conditions is that the tires stay equal wide, but the downforce will reduce so aquaplaning will happen sooner.

[chillibowl]

from the article that Taxi645 posted.

Originally Posted by Taxi645

[B][SIZE=3][I]https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/c...e-wet/6658938/

"I think the cars have changed. I think there's significantly more ground effect with the cars that we have now, and more downforce. We seem to suck more water off the ground.

thats Vettel's quote so if that means you think we are both trolls then appreciated!

[bjohnsonsmith]

This article: 'How Do Formula 1 Cars Generate Downforce?'', explains it all.

https://f1chronicle.com/how-do-formu...force-f1-tech/

[Skam85]

Originally Posted by Adam43

Trolling accusation! Really?

Welcome to 2021, where a harmless meme is now offensive and a troll attempt.

Cancelled.

[Adam43]

Cancelled accusation! Really?

[Skam85]

Originally Posted by Adam43

Cancelled accusation! Really?

Stay woke

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by BTCC frog

That would indeed be awful and would drive fans insane. But would it be any better if no points had been awarded and the driver second on the grid won the championship? I would argue that it would not be.

But if the drivers were equal on points and they did not award any points at all and decided the title on countback that would be a much more acceptable result than awarding half points for a few laps behind the safety car and deciding on that basis.

If the final result is for Verstappen as WDC and the difference is less than the 5 points advantage he received from Spa then the WDC result is always going to be controversial, and the subject of debate for years.

Whatever they decide to do for changes awarding any points for less than 1/3rd of the distance would be better than what we had on Sunday. Half points for qualifying and no racing isn't equitable.

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

If the final result is for Verstappen as WDC and the difference is less than the 5 points advantage he received from Spa then the WDC result is always going to be controversial, and the subject of debate for years.

I would think minutes would be more likely. Every single race is a case of what if.

[VIVA GT]

At the end of every season if the championship result isn't what people wanted for their particular fave driver there is always lots of 'what if's' and 'if only's'. Without the weather induced happenings at Spa 2021 would have been no different but what happened has just made it an easier thing to focus on.

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by peebee2

I would think minutes would be more likely. Every single race is a case of what if.

Maybe but I think for many it will linger. For Verstappen fans probably not but for Hamilton fans I think it will be a sore point for a lot longer.

We'll see how the season plays out and then what remains after that.

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by Taxi645

I think that are a couple of elements with regards to visibility:

1 The width of the tyre.
2 The ground effect
3 The amount of turbulence/energy in the air behind the car.

If we look at this generation of cars of course they have wide tires so that doesn't help. Also the airflow behind the car is very high in turbulence/energy which I can imagine does contribute to turning the large amounts spray of those wide tires into a much finer "mist" that is much harder to look through and also doesn't fall back down as quickly.

If we compare that to next years cars, yes there will be more ground effect, but the airflow is designed to be less turbulent/high energy to not the disturb the car behind. This might help prevent the finer droplets from forming which stay suspended longer in the air and negatively influence visibility so much. We will have to wait and see.

What will not help in wet conditions is that the tires stay equal wide, but the downforce will reduce so aquaplaning will happen sooner.

The tyres are no wider than they were back in the 70s and 80s. I dont think that is the reason for wet weather problems at all.

Ground effect is the primary cause of the amount of water thrown up behind. There has always been turbulence of some sort but the dependence on ground effect has never been greater in terms of the finer difference between designs so it is hardly surprising it has such a major effect.

Gary Anderson had a podcast about the issues surrounding ground effect, the rain, aquaplaning, and Lando's accident at spa. I had noticed how when Lando corrected the car suddenly shot left and pitched him into the wall.
Anderson seemed to indicated front grip was not a problem in that situation, the front being well stuck to the road. It was the lack of balance between front and rear aero grip that resulted in the car spearing off to the left and thumping into the wall.

If that is true 2022 will be interesting, especially if its wet.

[S griffin]

Mark Webber said in commentary about the Pirelli wets not being as good as the Bridgestone wets were, so that's something to consider. How many times have we have seen a SC come out, then as soon as it came in everyone switches to inters?

[wnut]

Thought this would be a good footnote to Spa 2121

Adelaide 1991

The comments of Senna at the end are particularly relevant.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Ps29eT1_rs

Ron Dennis' as well - We have won both championships and now that Williams is out what does it matter. (Not verbatim)

[S griffin]

The only reason Senna started that race was because the constructors title was still up for grabs. Once Mansell retired, Senna gestured for the race to be stopped, as the title was won

It was the same in 89 at the same GP. He only started because he still had a chance of the title, subject to McLaren’s appeal against his Japanese GP disqualification. When he went out, he said he didn’t understand why the race kept going, because there was no title left to fight for

[tux]

This isnt even poor, its insulting. Hope the fans vote with their feet.


https://www.racefans.net/2021/12/21/...-2022-tickets/

[Adam43]

I was wrong, I thought they’d sort something out. Not the circuit itself, it most likely can’t afford to lose a year’s ticket revenue and still pay the hosting fee, but I thought together with F1 they’d sort it. Not that they have to, but I thought they’d do the decent thing. Wrong again.

[Born Racer]

Shameful is not an unfair word for it. Instead of Formula 21 dipping their hands in their pockets, they have the temerity to tease those who lost out by offering them a chance to go again, but only a slim chance. They have treated their customers with contempt.

On Christmas Day, this news reads to me like Ebeneezer Scrooge.

[Born Racer]

It's a total misjudgement. They have taken what is people's legitimate claim to compensation and turned it into a competition, giving hope, but faint hope only and showing an elitism that implies that only the lucky few can ascend to the the paradisiacal realm of Grand Prix attendance. Total hubris that is emblematic of the cataclysmic misjudgements we have been seeing in F1 recently.

[chillibowl]

Should outdoor events provide full refunds on account of weather? Should those who go be absolved of any personal risk?

Had the event been postponed then issue a refund, as they are doing with the numerous nba and nhl games which are currently being postponed.

But this race did happen, all be it in a goofy contractual way (so I understand anger towards that), and there were the earlier sessions etc to enjoy…I guess my question would be is there a large contingent of those who attended live asking for a refund or is this a case of online outrage?

Anyways, my holiday spirit is currently being sapped by those who decided to travel during a global covid wave and who are now seeing their plans being canceled on them. Ho ho ho has turned into me me me and give me my money back.

I guess we all have different ideas of what falls under legitimate compensation.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

Should outdoor events provide full refunds on account of weather? Should those who go be absolved of any personal risk?

Had the event been postponed then issue a refund, as they are doing with the numerous nba and nhl games which are currently being postponed.

But this race did happen, all be it in a goofy contractual way (so I understand anger towards that), and there were the earlier sessions etc to enjoy…I guess my question would be is there a large contingent of those who attended live asking for a refund or is this a case of online outrage?

Anyways, my holiday spirit is currently being sapped by those who decided to travel during a global covid wave and who are now seeing their plans being canceled on them. Ho ho ho has turned into me me me and give me my money back.

I guess we all have different ideas of what falls under legitimate compensation.

It is probably an unpopular opinion, but I agree.

Richard

[wnut]

Plus 2 for me. Tickets used to carry; "No refund in the event of cancellation due to rain"; on the back of them, and I must admit that is the spirit in which I buy them. The organizers have outlayed the whole expense to run the event, so they can hardly be in bad faith.

[Adam43]

I certainly agree that they don’t have to, and that Spa really can’t anyway.

Although I did think that F1 might do something. I read somewhere they gave people a subscription to F1TV.

[Born Racer]

One issue is that they tantalised spectators by sending the cars out, only to bring them in; that must have been disappointing. Let me emphasise that I agree safety must come first, so I have no issue with the race suspension. Yet, as such events are so rare, there is no modern precedent for such a situation and in a supposedly freshly fan-focused series, contingency should have been made for such scenarios and in its absence, Formula 1 should have offered something much more substantial and outlined a procedure for the future. I understand the circuit can't reimburse, die to the financial tightrope it walks just to put on the race.

[S griffin]

I think what cheated the fans most is that they were kept waiting just to see 2 laps under the SC. It would have been better to have abandoned it earlier rather than going down a dead end like that