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Old 19 Oct 2008, 14:08 (Ref:2315878)   #16
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dsg should be qualifying in the top 3 on the griddsg should be qualifying in the top 3 on the griddsg should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
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Originally Posted by Dasher
My point is, as i have stated earlier in this thread, do females with reasonable to good ability get a drive over a male with good to excellent ability & speed because the female with some ability is a more marketable commodity than the male.
Yes they do but it also happens with male drivers. For example Grant Denyer. At the top levels the line between business and sport get blurred and getting a more marketable driver can provide longer term benefits for the team.
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Old 19 Oct 2008, 21:08 (Ref:2316161)   #17
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Yes they do but it also happens with male drivers. For example Grant Denyer. At the top levels the line between business and sport get blurred and getting a more marketable driver can provide longer term benefits for the team.
So are you saying that Grant Denyer has reasonable ability then, or that he has female tendencies ?
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Old 20 Oct 2008, 02:19 (Ref:2316317)   #18
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I can't really comment on the professional level, but certainly at the club level, the environment that "some" clubs thrive on are clearly not geared toward setting girls up with a career in motorsport. In my experience, girls get turned off long before they get a chance to prove themselves as quality drivers, which begs the question, are the handful of girls that get through really the best drivers and therefore a good representation of what women can really achieve in a race car? I do admit my opinions are biased because of some of the treatment my wife received at events in the past.

I find it interesting that any female that succeeds, is automatically evaluated in terms of what male attributes she has that lead to the success. I personally think the sport has a lot of growing up to do in this area, and I know very few would believe that “you can do anything” line really applies to females in motorsport. Maybe it starts with that scary phrase "You were beaten by a girl!".

Now we just need a few more posts on physical strength to really get this going!
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Old 20 Oct 2008, 08:02 (Ref:2316388)   #19
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Law of averages says it's not likely to happen.

Ignoring the physical (strength...) limitations of a female driver just look at how many red blooded Aussie males you have to choose from (versus females) to find 28 V8 Supercar drivers - is it as high as a 1000 male drivers to each female driver ?

Interesting to see how (Ron Dennis) McLaren became involved with Lewis Hamilton at the tender age of 12 (in Karts) & virtually gifted him a scholarship right through to F1. Wonder if this could be done with a talented female Karter too ???
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Old 20 Oct 2008, 12:56 (Ref:2316626)   #20
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NAC should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridNAC should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
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Now we just need a few more posts on physical strength to really get this going!
What you mean things like Danica Patrick getting special trials with the new power steer unit before anyone else gets it.
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Old 20 Oct 2008, 21:19 (Ref:2316972)   #21
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all good points about law of averages etc... once upon a time, a freckle-nose mere slip of a girl drove an HDT Torana at Bathurst, drove a works Alfa Romeo into a position to potentially win the ATCC (pulling out after coming down with a womanly dose of the pregnants IIRC), punted the V8 hero cars most effectively (although perhaps unfairly, is best remembered for her part in shortening the 1981 JH1000, never mind that she was running a solid sixth outright at that stage) and ended her tin-top career mentoring Glenn Seton at Bathurst in an evil little orphan from the works Nissan squad...

Christine Gibson (nee Cole), take a bow...
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Old 20 Oct 2008, 22:48 (Ref:2317052)   #22
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Christine Gibson was one hell of a steerer but unfortunately fits into the same Coulda, Woulda, Shoulda category as a whole heap of other female drivers over the decades.

It has nothing to do with law of averages, there are as many females as males interested in this sport although some are a bit shy to advertise it and don't readily come out of the closet.

No female ever has or ever will win a championship of a major importance, they simply don't have the gonads when it comes down to the bottom line.

They might make a bit of a substantial ripple on the surface for a while, but in the end for whatever reason, they always have and always will fail to deliver in the end.

What ever way you look at it, this is fact.
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Old 20 Oct 2008, 23:07 (Ref:2317071)   #23
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What you mean things like Danica Patrick getting special trials with the new power steer unit before anyone else gets it.
I hadn’t heard about the power steering, but yeah, I think it’s valid. It’s seems funny that you have people at all levels requesting parity, but when it comes to setting up a level playing field between the sexes by allowing or limiting certain mods, it’s suddenly not viable?

I remember hearing one of the girls after trying what I think was an under 2 litre sports sedan who said the “steering is just too heavy” (presumably due to the quick rack and slicks), and the “brake pedal was too hard to push down” (I think it was because the brake booster had been removed to save weight). Obviously her comments received plenty of smirks, but if the category was restricted to a standard steering rack and brake booster, couldn’t we eliminate the supposed male advantage, so it’s just about car control and race craft? Who knows what could change the culture hurdle though.
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Old 21 Oct 2008, 00:55 (Ref:2317126)   #24
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Originally Posted by Dasher
Christine Gibson was one hell of a steerer but unfortunately fits into the same Coulda, Woulda, Shoulda category as a whole heap of other female drivers over the decades.

It has nothing to do with law of averages, there are as many females as males interested in this sport although some are a bit shy to advertise it and don't readily come out of the closet.

No female ever has or ever will win a championship of a major importance, they simply don't have the gonads when it comes down to the bottom line.

They might make a bit of a substantial ripple on the surface for a while, but in the end for whatever reason, they always have and always will fail to deliver in the end.

What ever way you look at it, this is fact.
It's fact they've never won. It's a bit hard to proclaim fact on stuff that's not happened yet. Who would have predicted 20 years ago you'd have a West Indian heritage driver leading the Formula 1 Drivers Championship? You'd have been laughed out of the paddock.
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Old 21 Oct 2008, 01:05 (Ref:2317132)   #25
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NAC should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridNAC should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Re Patrick and PS

See this thread
http://tentenths.com/forum/archive/i.../t-109234.html

A couple of other quotes on that subject. To be fair many in the IRL have made mention of the Power Steering issue in the past. This was more to the point that they gave it to her and Manning to test in a race when others did not have it.

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Imagine what it’s like for Danica Patrick, who at 5 foot and 100 pounds is the lightest driver in a major auto racing series, and most likely the lightest in history. The three lightest male IndyCar Series drivers are Marco Andretti (135), Darren Manning (135) and Vitor Meira (141). Brazilian stars Helio Castroneves and Tony Kanaan each weigh 147, and the rest of the drivers are at least 150 pounds.
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“I think power steering would (make a huge difference), for sure. I think (not having) it is hurting her a little bit,” said Patrick’s car owner and former driver, Michael Andretti. “It’s very hard for all the guys. If they’re all complaining about it, you know it’s tough on her. But you’ve got to give her credit. She’s pretty strong, man.”
http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/20393876/



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Patrick, female pioneers search for equal ground in auto racing
Link here

Sorry if it's a bit off topic (topic being under Aussie / NZ Touring Cars)
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Old 21 Oct 2008, 04:33 (Ref:2317216)   #26
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mountainstar should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridmountainstar should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Women and men have a lot of advantages and disadvantages over one another.

Being aggressive for women goes against their nature(hormones) and if you watch women racers you will see a lot of inconsistency in their driving and lap times. Plus when you add in door to door racing it all goes out the window.(kat legge and danica are prime examples)

Also women are insular, as they always look inwards and lack much situation awareness which also causes havoc on race tracks.

Women also lack the natural physical strength men have which in some racing series is very important, less so maybe at a club level.

However women are good organizers, making good co drivers in rally and also do well when competing against the clock especially regarding response times in drag racing.

Danica would have never made it to where she is based on results, so certainly in her case, her sex and supposed attractiveness(barf) helped.

In this day and age, men and women are apparently equal and yes as human beings they are, but they do have mental and physical differences and in the case of motor sport that will always work against them.

However I welcome and like women racing drivers and wish them all the success they can obtain.
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Old 21 Oct 2008, 04:38 (Ref:2317220)   #27
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sorry double post
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Old 21 Oct 2008, 05:14 (Ref:2317231)   #28
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Being aggressive for women goes against their nature.
You haven't met my wife.
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Old 22 Oct 2008, 11:01 (Ref:2318156)   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dasher
Christine Gibson was one hell of a steerer but unfortunately fits into the same Coulda, Woulda, Shoulda category as a whole heap of other female drivers over the decades.

It has nothing to do with law of averages, there are as many females as males interested in this sport although some are a bit shy to advertise it and don't readily come out of the closet.

No female ever has or ever will win a championship of a major importance, they simply don't have the gonads when it comes down to the bottom line.

They might make a bit of a substantial ripple on the surface for a while, but in the end for whatever reason, they always have and always will fail to deliver in the end.

What ever way you look at it, this is fact.

How many guys of the same era could you say that about?

Warren Cullen, Garry Rogers, Ron Dickson, Clive Benson-Browne, Alan Browne, John English, John Smith, Peter Janson, Barry Jones, Terry Finnigan, Lucio Cesario......need I go on?

the fact is, very few make it to the top of the heap, even less when you have a few dominate a series like Brock, Johnson and Moffat did around then.
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Old 23 Oct 2008, 09:56 (Ref:2318848)   #30
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Originally Posted by Dasher
Christine Gibson was one hell of a steerer but unfortunately fits into the same Coulda, Woulda, Shoulda category as a whole heap of other female drivers over the decades.

It has nothing to do with law of averages, there are as many females as males interested in this sport although some are a bit shy to advertise it and don't readily come out of the closet.

No female ever has or ever will win a championship of a major importance, they simply don't have the gonads when it comes down to the bottom line.

They might make a bit of a substantial ripple on the surface for a while, but in the end for whatever reason, they always have and always will fail to deliver in the end.

What ever way you look at it, this is fact.
********. If you understood the statistics you would see that there are many V8 supercar drivers and past touring car drivers that never amounted to much from their results as far as wins, let alone at a lower level. Then take into account how many women actively compete...however you are creating a closed loop. No woman would bother attempting a sport that she might be good at if she has to confront attitudes as you express in this thread. I have spoken to one of the current good women drivers mentioned in this thread and she noted that two other girls, that she felt were better than her left Karts simply because of the fathers of other kid drivers kept telling them that 'women are not as good as men' etc. I see your expressed attitude (I do not say that it is your real belief) as the real problem, rather than any particular failing.
However I might suggest that we (people who like motorsport) *desperately* need many more women to be involved in the driving simply to strengthen the position of motorsport in general when it comes under increased environmental pressure in the future. If it is perceived as just a 'sport for blokes' then you are going to have more than 50% of Australia's population (i.e. the women) not giving a rats arse about any logical argument about motorsports real or perceived worth.
Frankly one day I hope I can drive almost as good as Leanne Tander - I doubt many on this forum can do so.
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