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Old 23 Dec 2018, 15:10 (Ref:3872120)   #3351
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Originally Posted by Chiana View Post
It's so cheap and easy for "OEM" to have their name there so I think it's more of a case of "why not?... look at "Nissan" who probably don't even remember they have been competing in this category for years now, even when they entered the series had to specifically demand at least something needed to be added to the spec Onroak chassis they chose to rebrand

And Zytek is more than glad to supply LMP1/2 engines to everyone in the world of course... Their conveyor belts must be gigantic by now
nissan VK45 lmp2 engine was tuned and supplied to team by zytek as well; it's an almost a 10 years long monopoly
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Old 23 Dec 2018, 15:14 (Ref:3872121)   #3352
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I think there has to be an OEM involved in the project in some way. What that means exactly isn't clear, but as long as somebody pays the IMSA fee the series is good with about anything.
guess it's all a rebranding exercise afterall....
as mazda dpi.... multimatic developed car powered by an AER engine.

An oreca 07 with a different nose/lights powered by gibson 4.2L or 4.5L badged as Lada dpi at example (don't know other russian OEM)
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Old 23 Dec 2018, 15:17 (Ref:3872122)   #3353
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I think there has to be an OEM involved in the project in some way. What that means exactly isn't clear, but as long as somebody pays the IMSA fee the series is good with about anything.
Yes... IIRC Nissan didn't even make the mandated aesthetic body bits for their cars themselves but Onroak had to modify their own car to make it more Nissany
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Old 23 Dec 2018, 15:18 (Ref:3872123)   #3354
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I think there has to be an OEM involved in the project in some way. What that means exactly isn't clear, but as long as somebody pays the IMSA fee the series is good with about anything.
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Originally Posted by canaglia View Post
nissan VK45 lmp2 engine was tuned and supplied to team by zytek as well; it's an almost a 10 years long monopoly
Indeed
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Old 24 Dec 2018, 02:32 (Ref:3872175)   #3355
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Yes... IIRC Nissan didn't even make the mandated aesthetic body bits for their cars themselves but Onroak had to modify their own car to make it more Nissany
As opposed to Acura? Do you really think Acura or HPD did that and Oreca wasn't involved at all? We get it, you and a few others don't like the DPi idea but stop pretending somehow this was at ALL going to be anything other than marketing. Racing has ALWAYS been marketing and never about the best version of the actual street product.
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Old 24 Dec 2018, 10:32 (Ref:3872218)   #3356
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As opposed to Acura? Do you really think Acura or HPD did that and Oreca wasn't involved at all? We get it, you and a few others don't like the DPi idea but stop pretending somehow this was at ALL going to be anything other than marketing. Racing has ALWAYS been marketing and never about the best version of the actual street product.
Mazda was heavily involved with the design (well, styling) of its DPi .... And as I recall Cadillac (or some branch of GM) collaborated on their car.

Who cares, though?

And yes ... the DPi, the Gen 4 DP, and WEC's new hypercar are All about marketing. All, entirely. "Styling cues" are all about being able to pretend the racing car is in some way related to the street car. With the hypercar, aero is Deliberately sacrificed in favor of style ... as it was with the Gen 4 "Corvette" DP.

The DPi trend stated back in the fading days of the Rolex Sports Car Series, when manufacturers wanted the engine name listed ahead of the chassis name ... BMW wanted the winning car to be a BMW-Riley, not a Riley-BMW as the Euros had always done it. Ford wanted a Ford-Riley, not a Riley-Ford, to be in the news.

Now the DPis have bodywork and an engine from a dues-paying manufacturer, and no one mentions who made the base LMP2 chassis ... which was the workaround the merged series used in order to get the manufacturer's name in the news with every mention.

Not many people commented on the death of that tradition ... the chassis-maker getting first (or any) billing.

Again ... who cares how much Nissan added to the bodywork? As far as I know, None of the DPi chassis are so radically modified that they could escape intellectual-property lawsuits .... if the factories hadn't purchased naming rights.

The "Cadillac" is still just a Dallara-Cadillac ... the Nissan is still an Oreca-Nissan .... the chassis have not been changed beyond a few new engine- and accessory-mounting points.

Since it is all marketing ... we pretend Cadillac actually built a race car .... Nissan is just more up-front about it.
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Old 24 Dec 2018, 11:33 (Ref:3872229)   #3357
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Originally Posted by Maelochs View Post
Mazda was heavily involved with the design (well, styling) of its DPi .... And as I recall Cadillac (or some branch of GM) collaborated on their car.

Who cares, though?

And yes ... the DPi, the Gen 4 DP, and WEC's new hypercar are All about marketing. All, entirely. "Styling cues" are all about being able to pretend the racing car is in some way related to the street car. With the hypercar, aero is Deliberately sacrificed in favor of style ... as it was with the Gen 4 "Corvette" DP.

The DPi trend stated back in the fading days of the Rolex Sports Car Series, when manufacturers wanted the engine name listed ahead of the chassis name ... BMW wanted the winning car to be a BMW-Riley, not a Riley-BMW as the Euros had always done it. Ford wanted a Ford-Riley, not a Riley-Ford, to be in the news.

Now the DPis have bodywork and an engine from a dues-paying manufacturer, and no one mentions who made the base LMP2 chassis ... which was the workaround the merged series used in order to get the manufacturer's name in the news with every mention.

Not many people commented on the death of that tradition ... the chassis-maker getting first (or any) billing.

Again ... who cares how much Nissan added to the bodywork? As far as I know, None of the DPi chassis are so radically modified that they could escape intellectual-property lawsuits .... if the factories hadn't purchased naming rights.

The "Cadillac" is still just a Dallara-Cadillac ... the Nissan is still an Oreca-Nissan .... the chassis have not been changed beyond a few new engine- and accessory-mounting ptints.

Since it is all marketing ... we pretend Cadillac actually built a race car .... Nissan is just more up-front about it.
Completely agree with your statement.
Anyway to me the only real complete dpi in spirit is mazda dpi, the only car that has a design to look like (less vaguely) mazda street cars style. Aero development was put aside giving aesthetics priority, basically what aston did back in 2009 with lola-aston lmp1.
Acura and Nissan dpi are basically oreca and ligier with a different nose and underbody changes to fit the engine. Cadillac dpi has a more revised aero than a dallara lmp2, but you can't say at all cadillac dpi has the same style identity of street cadillacs.

Anyway to me is everything good so far, shame that any other manufacturer seems interested to step in... hope at least mazda and HPD will let privates use their cars.
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Old 24 Dec 2018, 18:12 (Ref:3872284)   #3358
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Who cares? The entire discussion makes me think you would care. The ranting about who built what comes from that place of caring about it. If you didn't care, you wouldn't comment. But it seems like you've chosen your beloved path and then have to just constantly harp on and talk down anything else. Frankly it's getting to the point that I'd rather talk beer and football on here than racing. Every other comment is either an "insider" or someone who knows better how to do "X" than the business does, but any and all debate is shut down with a you're wrong response. If you don't like it, stop watching, stop following, stop visiting their sites. Frankly modern business doesn't care whether you're watching angry or joyfully, you're watching and you're visiting the site driving traffic. And no, most surely aren't getting all their news on here so obviously reading something and that something generates clicks and views, the cash of the modern business. Stop going and it will end.
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Old 24 Dec 2018, 19:10 (Ref:3872294)   #3359
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Frankly it's getting to the point that I'd rather talk beer and football on here than racing.
Feel free.

I didn't hear any really negative comments here except this one.

I do not care if the Acura Oreca is called an Acura or an Oreca or a Penske .... do you? Does the name the announcers call out determine whether or not you enjoy the events?

If not ... you don't care either.

I guess you have been having a stressful holiday season and needed to vent. That's cool.

Sucks I won't make it to the Roar this year ... or the Rolex. Will you be attending any races this season?

Is that an acceptable question, or will that also set you off?
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Old 24 Dec 2018, 19:47 (Ref:3872297)   #3360
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Aero development was put aside giving aesthetics priority, basically what aston did back in 2009 with lola-aston lmp1.
The AMR Lola is quite functional and has very minimal styling elements. The only thing Aston Martin about it is a faux grille glued to the nose.
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Old 24 Dec 2018, 21:40 (Ref:3872307)   #3361
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The only thing Aston Martin about it is a faux grille glued to the nose.

And redesigned the fenders so the leading edges were more rounded, and made the rear of the front fenders connect to the sidepods, and swap the intakes on the rear fenders for NACA ducts...

And numerous other small changes that aren't immediately obvious when you look at the cars side-by-side.

(as an aside, the initial versions of the closed-top Lola LMPs remain my favorite closed-top LMPs aesthetically, just as their open-top predecessors remain my favorite open-top LMPs aesthetically)
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Old 25 Dec 2018, 00:31 (Ref:3872312)   #3362
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I don't think anyone really cares about the name of the cars, but I also think there's some people who are a little bit less impressed about the continued liberty of which some say "manufacturer involvement" in regards to the top class. I get it, they have 4 manufacturers. But it gets a little bit tiring for me to hear that over and over again as some bragging right over other series, namely the wec lmp1's. It's possible to enjoy both without being a fanboy of one or the other but still have a preference.

I think both of the classes have their ups and downs. But at least there's variety in both. That much I enjoy at the least.
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Old 25 Dec 2018, 00:40 (Ref:3872314)   #3363
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I don't think anyone really cares about the name of the cars, but I also think there's some people who are a little bit less impressed about the continued liberty of which some say "manufacturer involvement" in regards to the top class.
The only way "manufacturers" are involved really, is financially. And that's all that's needed.

FIA is a global organization sucking up money from all over. IMSA is a lot smaller and has a lot more budgetary constraints. So IMSA needs people to pay to play--and the gentleman drivers and privater teams can't support the cost.

NONE of modern racing is really what I wish it were ... but I either take what I can get and enjoy it as much as possible, or walk away.
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Old 25 Dec 2018, 17:40 (Ref:3872367)   #3364
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The AMR Lola is quite functional and has very minimal styling elements. The only thing Aston Martin about it is a faux grille glued to the nose.
Not to start a fight, here a comparison between lola b10/60 and lola aston





I'not saying lola-aston is an evolution of lolaB1060, but you just can't say that is just a lola with an astonlike grille....

starting from the same tub, prodrive built a lmp1 that (IMHO) shares some kind of likeness and aesthetics style of street aston martin cars. Don't know if lola aston developed more or less downforce than a standard lola B1060, but if you ask me, does lola aston share an "aston martin" identity? yes; does mazda dpi share a "mazda" identity? yes; do acura dpi, nissan dpi, cadillac dpi share identity with respective manufacturer aesthetics style? answer is no.
That's why to me mazda dpi is the only current car to fulfill dpi spirit, while other are just slightly modified gibsonless lmp2.
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Old 27 Dec 2018, 06:28 (Ref:3872595)   #3365
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you just can't say that is just a lola with an astonlike grille....
Good, because i didn't. All those other things just make it a Prodrive Lola and are a result of the base car being designed for a non-specific engine and slightly different aerodynamic regulations on a limited budget split between variants for two different classes. I can't see what any other part of the car shares with any Aston Martin, aside from by virtue of not being designed by Lola looking less characteristically Lola-like.

The actual base car is this one, by the way, not a 2010 car.


Notably more similar in regards to rear fender shape and engine bay ducting than the Rebellion car you posted.
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Old 27 Dec 2018, 08:49 (Ref:3872602)   #3366
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Not 100% truth. Most of lola aston were based on lola b09/60 tub; but there have been 2 lola-aston built respectively on a b08/60 and a b10/60 tub.

This let me speculate that carbon monocoque is basically the same for 08-09-10/60 models.


Problem is that the "identity concept" is quite abstract and relative. When I see a lola-aston, I see a lmp1 car that shares a style and an identity with street aston martin; someone else would see something different.
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Old 27 Dec 2018, 10:10 (Ref:3872609)   #3367
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Any of those Lolas with THAT engine amidship were a glorious thing
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Old 27 Dec 2018, 10:30 (Ref:3872613)   #3368
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Regardless of how much AMR there was, at least the car was called LOLA Aston Martin, not just Aston Martin... which is what would've happened today. I think the danger with these rebranded "Acuras" and "Alpines" and whatever is just that, people that don't know any better think it's the real thing and that reassures the OEMs into thinking that building something from the scratch is waste of time and money.

It's "interesting" that IndyCar of all things has denied the engine (+ formerly aerokit) OEMs the chance of rebranding the spec Dallaras as their own OEM chassis... ie they are still listed as Dallara-Hondas or Dallara-Chevrolets, instead of something stupid like Honda Indycar or Chevy Indycar

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Old 27 Dec 2018, 11:39 (Ref:3872621)   #3369
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Regardless of how much AMR there was, at least the car was called LOLA Aston Martin, not just Aston Martin... which is what would've happened today. I think the danger with these rebranded "Acuras" and "Alpines" and whatever is just that, people that don't know any better think it's the real thing and that reassures the OEMs into thinking that building something from the scratch is waste of time and money.

It's "interesting" that IndyCar of all things has denied the engine (+ formerly aerokit) OEMs the chance of rebranding the spec Dallaras as their own OEM chassis... ie they are still listed as Dallara-Hondas or Dallara-Chevrolets, instead of something stupid like Honda Indycar or Chevy Indycar

Actually if am I not wrong, the official name of lola-aston is Aston Martin DBR1-2 even if in official sheets, car was reported as lola aston martin or lola b09/60 aston martin.
Sometimes is just a matter of prospective.... the car should be named by who materially built the car or by who paid someone else to build it?

and in this case, should be named by who designed the car even if didn't build it?
are we right to call audi sportscars just audi R10, R15, R18 and not dallara/ycom audi R18?

at the end, guess prodrive didn't want to spend extra cash to buy IP rights of lola chassis....
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Old 27 Dec 2018, 11:57 (Ref:3872624)   #3370
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It's still listed as Lola Aston Martin in the official ACO sheets
http://fiawec.alkamelsystems.com/Results/01_2011/02_LE%20MANS/27_24%20HEURES%20DU%20MANS/201106082200_Qualifying/03_Classification_Qualifying.PDF

As for the other point, at least it was Audi was who funded and provided the entire basis for Dallara to build the car... It wasn't a rebranded, tech frozen chassis already pre-built by someone else where on top you just slapped something (if even that) and called the thing your own
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Old 27 Dec 2018, 13:27 (Ref:3872642)   #3371
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It's still listed as Lola Aston Martin in the official ACO sheets
http://fiawec.alkamelsystems.com/Res...Qualifying.PDF

As for the other point, at least it was Audi was who funded and provided the entire basis for Dallara to build the car... It wasn't a rebranded, tech frozen chassis already pre-built by someone else where on top you just slapped something (if even that) and called the thing your own
Agree, speaking about AMR, at the end it was just a IP rights matter.
Prodrive didn't pay for rights so AMR couldn't drop lola from the name of the car.

Other example, 2014-2016 mazda's in IMSA were clearly 2 modified lola b12/80; but mazda bought IP rights from multimatic (who had license to keep on producing lola lmp1/lmp2 parts) so the car became officially a generic "mazda prototype".
Same about AMR-One, or oak pescarolo lm2 that became morgan lmp2... rebadge warfare.
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Old 27 Dec 2018, 15:20 (Ref:3872663)   #3372
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In an S365 article about Gdrive testing at Sebring there were a couple of interesting items. First, imsa says DPi's have to be from a mainstream OEM with high volume sales in the US. So G-Drives plan wouldn't work at the moment to make a russian oem DPi. Second, it says Panoz was denied the ability by IMSA to make a DPi on a Ligier.

https://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/...2019-programs/

Personally, i can't see the advantage for the series to deny entries in this category.
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Old 27 Dec 2018, 19:47 (Ref:3872703)   #3373
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The report, if true, that they turned down a Panoz entry shows it may have ALMS veterans in place but they have the GA ideals (or money if you choose) firmly instilled. Course the fact that he basically bankrolled the series meant he could shove whatever projects he wanted on the track; sadly though they seemed to get worse not better.
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Old 27 Dec 2018, 20:22 (Ref:3872706)   #3374
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Personally, i can't see the advantage for the series to deny entries in this category.
Protecting the brand.

IMSA wants ( I assume) major U.S. manufacturers to fight it out for publicity. IMSA (nor the manufacturers) want some no-name team taking the top honors. "Panoz" winning doesn't help anyone but Panoz.

If Acura beats Cadillac, at least people think Cadillac lost to a a major force, a big factory. If Joe and Bubba beat Cadillac ... well, Cadillac must really suck, no?

Getting more cars on the grid hasn't been an issue. But to keep the game worthwhile for the major manufacturers, all the cars have to bear a recognizable name.
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Old 28 Dec 2018, 17:02 (Ref:3872846)   #3375
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helgi should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridhelgi should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridhelgi should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
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Originally Posted by joeb View Post
In an S365 article about Gdrive testing at Sebring there were a couple of interesting items. First, imsa says DPi's have to be from a mainstream OEM with high volume sales in the US. So G-Drives plan wouldn't work at the moment to make a russian oem DPi.

Is there any reason to test a 100% proven (and Le Mans winning) car at Sebring as a preparation for an European season? There would be a reason if they have some updates to shake. But it's a LMP2 thing. What's the reason then? Besides, if there're any sanctions against Gazprom (the parent company of G-Drive) there's little chance for them to participate in the race in US. I do not remember a single bit of G-Drive activity in racing that has no advertising component. It couldn't be just a driver's decision to compete at Sebring. As we know they've left FIA WEC so there's no point from a championship view. So, it's not that obvious for me.
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