What Happened to GT1?

[Bob Riebe]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

Of course it "can" work, but really, it is an unrealistic expectation these days, at least for Sportscars.

Unrealistic for sports cars, for the sports racer/protos maybe, but for the GT class, put up the money and they will come.
Especially if they use their own minimul rules, meaning no one has the ideal set-up already.

Drag racing still has the outlaw races, and automotive based sponsors that have something to gain by such a race, plus they still put on "the big show".
Road racing once had it, now it needs a promoter with the love of cars and charisma to set it up.

Sadly it seems these days, there are no such people in the rest of auto based motorsports, with the exception of Panoz, and he sold out to the ACO.
Bob

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by Bob Riebe

Unrealistic for sports cars, for the sports racer/protos maybe, but for the GT class, put up the money and they will come.
Especially if they use their own minimul rules, meaning no one has the ideal set-up already.

That is all well and good Bob, but then you are talking about something completely different than what this thread is talking about.

[ss_collins]

GT1 is a bit of a lame duck, GT2 is a bit dull. I think we should follow the Super GT route of GT500 and GT300. Its a far better systems - the works team are happy playing with each other in GT500 and privateers can play for more reasonable money in GT300. In GT300 £500k buys the car and £250,000 runs it - so its equivalent to GT1, perhaps add in a GT100 class for the GT2 type cars

[AU N EGL]

Racing cost money. BIG MONEY. No matter what class or race series. There are only soo many manufactures and most manufactures have limited race budgets ( part of marketing) except maybe Ferrari.

Manufactures do look at who their potential customers are and where it is best to spend those advertising moneys ??

In the USA, tin top racing or NASCAR is extreemly popular with spectators and potential customers. So the AMerican manufactures advertising moneys go into NASCAR.

Now Toyota has seen the advatages of NASCAR racing as advertsing for potential customers. Toyota has been involved in NACAR Truck racing for a few years and next year will have Toyto cars in the Nextel Cup ( true Nascar) races.

We can all discuss how GT1 or GT2 should or should not be ? Or which cars should go into which class?? IMHO with out the manufactures moneys to support racing as an advertising outlet the races will die a slow death. Priveteers dont support the races, but priveteers are needed to fill the race fields.

Chevolet sponsors ALMS in the US to showcase the Corvette. Chevolets has Pratt & Miller build and manage the factory sponsord Corvette team in the US. Chevolet also supports the European Corvette teams ( C5-R and C6.r ) to some degree to race in the ELMS and ( C6ZO6.r ) in GT3 races, but not to come to the US and race.
Where are the European auto manufacturs supporting racing?? Seems to me it mostly in F1 or in a race series to highlight and promote their car.

Ferrari = F1
Reneult = F1 & WR & ?
BWM = F1 & DT ( BMW does and a 600 series car that has been homologised for GT1, but never devloped )
MB = F1 & DT
Porsche = DT and its own races series Porshce Cup ( provides assistance to Porsche teams )

AM and Volvo owned by Ford

A few of the Japaniees GT 500 cars came to the US to compeate in SPeed World Challange GT. The Nissan could not meet the 110% qualifcation times but was allowed to compete in the first three races. They were lapped too many times and were black flagged at each race Nissan did not return for the 4th race.

The other team was told they would be in the Speed World Touring class and elected not to compete at all.

Overall it is not an easy thing to fix.

Race sponsors & Auto Manufactures put their money were potential new customers are?

[pitviper]

The Skyline that competed in SPEED GT was nowhere near GT500 spec. In fact, I would find it safe to say that none of the SPEED GT cars would themselves make the 110% limit in a SuperGT race. Most ofthe GT500 cars are fatser than our own GT1 cars. Think of basically a prototype chassis fitted with a more outlandishly aerodynamic GT1 style body...

pit

[AU N EGL]

Originally Posted by pitviper

Think of basically a prototype chassis fitted with a more outlandishly aerodynamic GT1 style body...

pit

That sounds more like a Trans-Am car.

[pitviper]

in many ways you could think of them as being similar, but in reality the massive development that goes into these cars puts them leagues above what trans am cars are. they are in ways closer to what many feel we will see come 2010 with the new P1 Coupes that are prototypes with a touch of "road car"...

pit

[Bob Riebe]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

That is all well and good Bob, but then you are talking about something completely different than what this thread is talking about.

Yes and no, the thread is about what is wrong with GT1; some GT1 cars cannot simply go between series, due to restrictive-exclusive rules, so an outlaw race to show how popular GT1s may, or may not, be fits in with that very well.

Paul has an idea that in its basis has merit, but rather than the Japanese classes, create or return to a Group 4 1/2, or something similar, which would be something inbetween GT2 and GT1.

Bob

[JAG]

Originally Posted by ss_collins

GT1 is a bit of a lame duck, GT2 is a bit dull. I think we should follow the Super GT route of GT500 and GT300. Its a far better systems - the works team are happy playing with each other in GT500 and privateers can play for more reasonable money in GT300. In GT300 £500k buys the car and £250,000 runs it - so its equivalent to GT1, perhaps add in a GT100 class for the GT2 type cars

GT500 works in Japan as the Japanease manufactuers work together to put on a 'show', even so it's still hugely expensive.

If GM, Aston or Porsche showed up with a proper GT500 car the gentlemans agreement between the manufactuers would be blown apart, costs would rise even more.

If a 'GT' manufactuer is interested in racing a radical 'GT500' car, wouldn't they also be interested in the 2010 LMP1 coupes?

Ideally I'd like to see 'GT1' run closer to stock chassis/components (like GT2), but allow more power, plus a few other tweaks to keep speeds similar to current cars.

[AU N EGL]

Originally Posted by JAG

If GM, Aston or Porsche showed up with a proper GT500 car the gentlemans agreement between the manufactuers would be blown apart, costs would rise even more.

If you allow the C6.r to run without its two restrictors the LS7r motor would produce close to 900 bhp, would that do ??

If a 'GT' manufactuer is interested in racing a radical 'GT500' car, wouldn't they also be interested in the 2010 LMP1 coupes?

Manufactures want to advertise their cars that the public can purchase.

Ideally I'd like to see 'GT1' run closer to stock chassis/components (like GT2), but allow more power, plus a few other tweaks to keep speeds similar to current cars.

DOnt really thing that GT2 is anywhere near stock configurations. Even the P 996s still need an additional $250,000 of work to get them ready for GT2. That is over an above the price of the car. SO the GT2 Porsche 996 RSR and I bet the new 997 RSR is still close to a $500,000 race ready.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by AU N EGL

If you allow the C6.r to run without its two restrictors the LS7r motor would produce close to 900 bhp, would that do ??

Manufactures want to advertise their cars that the public can purchase.

DOnt really thing that GT2 is anywhere near stock configurations. Even the P 996s still need an additional $250,000 of work to get them ready for GT2. That is over an above the price of the car. SO the GT2 Porsche 996 RSR and I bet the new 997 RSR is still close to a $500,000 race ready.

A 900bhp C6.R, great, but GT500's have 500-600bhp, so to compete with those cars GM would need a totally new GT500 spec chassis, which has very little to do with the road car.


Yes, manufactuers do want to advertise their cars to the public, but the 2010 LMP1 regs will allow manufactuers to build a coupe prototype with a family resemblence, i,e the 911 GT1 and Mercedes CLK-LM. Let's face it, a 350Z GT500 JGTC car looks very different to the 350Z road car, but the resemblence is there.

GT2 cars are not 'stock', but they're closer to stock than GT1, hence why they are cheaper. A GT1 machine now costs $1m+, a GT2 half that. With restrictor changes an a few other tweaks you could have (almost) GT1 performance for 2/3rd's, if not half the cost.

[ger80]

With restrictor changes an a few other tweaks you could have (almost) GT1 performance for 2/3rd's, if not half the cost.

Please post the other tweaks too

[JAG]

Carbon brakes, 1050kg, larger rear wing and splitter, 550bhp, up from 480-500bhp.

Leading GT2 cars are already snapping at the heals of the slower GT1 cars in FIA GT/LMS/ALMS (when Konrad/Carsport ran).

It's only Le Mans and it's long straights were theres a significant difference.

IMHO they'd be cheaper AND, very importantly, spectacular.

Think of something similar to the Nurburgring 24hr spec Manthey GT3-RSR and Schnitzer M3 GTR V8.

[AU N EGL]

Originally Posted by JAG

Yes, manufactuers do want to advertise their cars to the public, but the 2010 LMP1 regs will allow manufactuers to build a coupe prototype with a family resemblence, i,e the 911 GT1 and Mercedes CLK-LM. Let's face it, a 350Z GT500 JGTC car looks very different to the 350Z road car, but the resemblence is there.

Sounds almost like P1 and GT1 will be then be ONE class. Time to go re-read the rule changes, if the make sence at all. :lol:

and the C6.r is a tube frame car with stock C6 frame rails and rear bumper as starting points.

[Bob Riebe]

Originally Posted by AU N EGL

and the C6.r is a tube frame car with stock C6 frame rails and rear bumper as starting points.

No it is not.

Every GT car since the 1968 Trans-Am has had similar construction, the difference between a tubey and a mod. Prod. is in the details, sometimes glaringly obvious.
I am out of this dog fight.
Bob

[hemicuda]

and the C6.r is a tube frame car with stock C6 frame rails and rear bumper as starting points.

Incorrect. I've seen a bare C6.R. NOT A TUBE FRAME CAR.

426

[AU N EGL]

Tube frame is a term for purpose built race car.

The stock C6 frame rails are used as a platform, then the remainder of the frame is hand built The C6.r is NOT a modifed C6 or a Z06.

Any way. GT1 is not inexpesive to build or race.

[chunterer]

But the problem is with every decent likeable category that costs eventually start to put people off, or it just isn't managed properly.

Remember Group A touring cars? As a basic formula that had the potential with loads of manufacturers involved as well as decent privateers (if managed sensibly later on with the turbos) to take on the world but the FIA had other ideas (allegedly).

With the old GT1/BPR it started off great but as soon as manufacturers started looking seriously at developing the equipment it put it out of reach for privateers wanting to run a pukka competitive car and Merc and Porsche made it a bit silly.

The current GT1 is heading the same way even without manufacturers entering works teams - they get round this by building the cars 'selling' them on but still it appears having some say in who drivers them and how they are developed as I understand it.

The only way to keep things sensible and to keep 'big bangers' racing, which is what we all want is to keep restrict the regs - only manufacturers start crying every time this sort of thing rears its head.

The Mazza is seriously restricted yet people still run it because it;s still damn quick and a strong marketing tool to attratc sponsors and publicity.

As long as regs are viewed yearly to keep things in check there's no reason why GT1 cannot continue as an attractive, sensible class of racing for entrants

[Bob Riebe]

=chuntererWith the old GT1/BPR it started off great but as soon as manufacturers started looking seriously at developing the equipment it put it out of reach for privateers wanting to run a pukka competitive car and Merc and Porsche made it a bit silly.

It was not developement, it was another set of rather asinine rules, concerning the prod. car base.

The current GT1 is heading the same way even without manufacturers entering works teams - they get round this by building the cars 'selling' them on but still it appears having some say in who drivers them and how they are developed as I understand it.

Not really, the minimum number of car produced is far, far beyond what made the original GT1 snafu happen.
It is beyond normally expensive to modify a prod. car to the restrictive rules, but with the Corvette being hit with penalties for having a better car, why would a privateer even consider having having his "unfair advantage" killed by rules makers .

The only way to keep things sensible and to keep 'big bangers' racing, which is what we all want is to keep restrict the regs - only manufacturers start crying every time this sort of thing rears its head.

Such restrictions are the problem why so few major teams even try, and why the small boys have said " to hell with it".
IF Chevy finally says enough is enough, ACO/ALMS GT1 will be an empty house.

The Mazza is seriously restricted yet people still run it because it;s still damn quick and a strong marketing tool to attratc sponsors and publicity.

I find it amazing that the IMSA, after seeing the advantage of having the name Maserati in the field; this year have pretty much driven everyone out, whilst bowing before Aston Martin (That was built by the same concern that made GT1-S, so dramatic just a few years ago when Ferrari made Chevy sweat) because their car is seemingly second rate, and needs special penalties put against Chevy.

As long as regs are viewed yearly to keep things in check there's no reason why GT1 cannot continue as an attractive, sensible class of racing for entrants

As long as IMSA sticks to this format, it is going nowhere, period.
I am sorry but lmp2 cars are third place horses in a four horse race, but then they have already beaten the supreme class, haven't they.
That says little for the arrangement.
Bob

[JAG]

The best thing that could happen to the ALMS GT1 class is for Chevy to pull the factory team and supply customers.

I simply do not understand what they gain from running a factory team against a bunch of privateers and, at best, a semi works Prodrive Aston team.

The C6.R's performances in the the LMS and FIA GT show the car is not superior, it's P&M and the factory back-up that makes the difference.

Oh, and some of the cash saved running the factory C6.R's could be focused into an engine program for P1. There is already talk of Corvette running some alternative fuel next season, would be interesting to see the alternative fueled Chevy V8 in the back of an LMP1.

[dj choc ice]

i agree with that jag the corvette C6R's are not exactly hugely fast in the hands of privateer teams even a very good team such as GLPK can not bring the car near the pace of the maseratis and the quicker astons hell even the saleen S7R or zakspeed is showing the much newer and more expensive corvette C6R's and sont mention the LMS god the aston martins are anhilating the C6R's only reason why is that the works vette team is in my eyes the best run team i have ever seen in sportscar racing with all pro drivers of an impeccably high standard when the corvette C6R's run with privateer teams like many of the astons are doing they just dont have the speed and the racepace so it proves that either the vette's are tricky to drive and hard to set-up correctly or they arent as fast as what people thought they were

[Adam43]

What a sentence! I think that is what you'd call it!

So, are you saying it is the professionalism of the team rather than the inherent pace of the car that is making the Corvette competitive?

[Bob Riebe]

Originally Posted by dj choc ice

i agree with that jag the corvette C6R's are not exactly hugely fast in the hands of privateer teams even a very good team such as GLPK can not bring the car near the pace of the maseratis and the quicker astons hell even the saleen S7R or zakspeed is showing the much newer and more expensive corvette C6R's and sont mention the LMS god the aston martins are anhilating the C6R's only reason why is that the works vette team is in my eyes the best run team i have ever seen in sportscar racing with all pro drivers of an impeccably high standard when the corvette C6R's run with privateer teams like many of the astons are doing they just dont have the speed and the racepace so it proves that either the vette's are tricky to drive and hard to set-up correctly or they arent as fast as what people thought they were

Good poiints.
Here at least one of the questions is: is it the local?
Chevrolets-US, car, engine and parts in its homeland.
Aston Martin-British (euro), car, engine and parts at least near its homeland.

Who builds the Corvette engines in Europe?
Here the LS engines now have become familiar enough that after-market concerns are building improved non-factory parts, and the LS is no longer new territory to top engine builders.
Does this scenario exist in the European arena, or are the Corvette teams subject to second line service from the US?

Similar for Aston Martin, in the US they are a long way from home, and cannot simply go to an after market supplier to see if some one has a better idea, or parts.

The Saleen Fords, are using basically improvements on an engine that is 30 plus years old, so by now it is familiar to any builder of US engines, anywhere.

It would be interesting to see who would show up if Chevy said goodbye, but then with the old Cliché; of power and corruption being illustrated in a grand manner by the ACO/ALMS concerns, I have little doubt it would be more of the same old-same old.
Bob

[AU N EGL]

Katech Engineering builds, devleops and manages the C6R engine program. Katech is also GMs main engine development partner for almost all of thier engines.


I agree team managment can have a lot to do with team success no matter how good a car may appear on paper.

Look at ProDrive and there success in the different motorsports programs they run.

[dj choc ice]

im not actually sure were the engines for the european chevy's come from probably engines for GM production cars would perhaps come from say luton or one of the opel or vauxhall factories but the chevy race engines i would bet would be shipped over from the USA to europe and so on.

we seem to find that the works teams do better at lemans while privateer teams like larbre and phoenix do better on the smaller tracks like spa, silverstone and monza maybe petit lemans will be good to watch since i have a feeling some teams could come over from europe into GT1 and LMP1 and LMP2 hopefully we will have a shoot off at petit between larbre, works astons and the corvettes damn that would be good but it will probably never happen lol