What is wrong with Redbull?

[Casper]

Originally Posted by stripedcat

Interestingly, they claim to have the best chassis in F1 - on a par with Mercedes. Apparently, it's just the engine that's letting them down. See the following :-

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/121984

That has been acknowledged for some time by most onlookers, I guess AS was a bit short on stories and long on space. There was some justified conjecture that the chassis being so good was the reason no one wants to supply the PU.

[Mike Harte]

Reading through the various press reports written over the past weekend, it becomes apparent that Renault had firmly dug in their heels and were refusing to supply the Red Bull teams with their PSUs. And when it looked virtually impossible to find an alternative provider, Mr E stepped in and proposed that Renault supplied/leased him (or FOM) with the units, and he could then in turn supply any team/s that he chose, i.e. Red Bull.

As a face saving exercise, Renault agreed to the plan and that was why, a few weeks ago, BCE was able to tell the media that Red Bull would have power-units. However, Red Bull then managed to convince, one has to guess how, Renault to continue to deal with directly. Now the position seems to be that whatever Ghosn decides concerning Renault's participation in Formula 1, Renault will supply Red Bull with it's units for next year at least, although they will be unbranded.

The fate of Lotus still hangs in the balance after the negotiations that took place over the weekend. It remains to be seen whether the proposals put forward by FOM and CVC were sufficient to stop Ghosn from pulling the plug on F1. Only 7 days remain until Lotus is back in court, so decision time must come before then!

[Casper]

Mike, not wanting to doubt what you say and I certainly don't go out of my way to rat through every source of information available but can you show us some links to support your assumptions. I must admit up front I am extremely cynical of any press reports at the moment and treat them with some disdain and a big dose of doubt. None of them that I have seen have proven to be any more than fairy tales as far as I am concerned.

[Mike Harte]

Casper, here you go:

http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/ec...eal-flops/?s=1

[Casper]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

Casper, here you go:

http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/ec...eal-flops/?s=1

All that I wrote I repeat, fairy tales until proven otherwise.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Casper

Mike, not wanting to doubt what you say and I certainly don't go out of my way to rat through every source of information available but can you show us some links to support your assumptions. I must admit up front I am extremely cynical of any press reports at the moment and treat them with some disdain and a big dose of doubt. None of them that I have seen have proven to be any more than fairy tales as far as I am concerned.

Mike's theory does hang together very neatly when you look at the various announcements and Bernie's modus operandi though.

[Casper]

Originally Posted by wnut

Mike's theory does hang together very neatly when you look at the various announcements and Bernie's modus operandi though.

And then you read this....http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2015/1...itive-outcome/

Which is a story to be believed?

[Mike Harte]

Casper, there is very little difference between the two reports, except that the Motorsport one puports to have direct quotes from BCE about the deal he set up with Renault.

[Casper]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

Casper, there is very little difference between the two reports, except that the Motorsport one puports to have direct quotes from BCE about the deal he set up with Renault.

There is? OK I must be reading something different. I don't believe either of them but that's my cynicism and contempt for what passes as F1 media in these days of online reporting. If you choose to believe either of them that is OK by me but count me out until official press releases are put out and explain all. On second thoughts we will never get the explanations only the final decisions but at least they will be facts.

[djinvicta]

Or believe this one?

http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns32619.html

[wolfhound]

Originally Posted by djinvicta

Or believe this one?

http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns32619.html

The bit about Ron being upset makes sense when you read what Joe Saward has to say. Note the bit about a McLaren shareholder.

https://joesaward.wordpress.com/2015...rom-abu-dhabi/

[wolfhound]

Tag Heuer have been confirmed as a RB sponsor. I wonder what if their logo will be on the engine cover or cam covers?

http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/re...-sponsor-deal/

[VIVA GT]

OK having read the links above (and having followed this whole story all year) my conclusion is that Red Bull will be having Renault engines, but they will not be badged as Renaults (presumably because of the bad press RB have given Renault and to also tie in with Renaults desire of 'not wanting to be an engine supplier').
The comment from Horner about Ron Dennis not being happy doesn't mean that they will be getting Honda PSU's, I'm guessing that TAG HUEUR (a previously long standing McLaren sponsor now moved to RB) will be branding the engines.
the only other comment I have is that I'm sure that I read somewhere that the TAG HUEUR brand is owned by a separate company, and therefore not connected directly to the TAG company who were involved with the TAG Porsche engine and other things.

[YorkshireLad]

I thought TAG HEUER was a sister/partner of Chandon which is now with McLaren? So in essence just a name swap.

Edit: sorry TAG HEUER is a brand associated with moet & Chandon which I guess aren't anything to do with Chandon on its own?

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by VIVA GT

OK having read the links above (and having followed this whole story all year) my conclusion is that Red Bull will be having Renault engines, but they will not be badged as Renaults (presumably because of the bad press RB have given Renault and to also tie in with Renaults desire of 'not wanting to be an engine supplier').
The comment from Horner about Ron Dennis not being happy doesn't mean that they will be getting Honda PSU's, I'm guessing that TAG HUEUR (a previously long standing McLaren sponsor now moved to RB) will be branding the engines.
the only other comment I have is that I'm sure that I read somewhere that the TAG HUEUR brand is owned by a separate company, and therefore not connected directly to the TAG company who were involved with the TAG Porsche engine and other things.

It is the Joe Saward link above that talks to the complexities around the "TAG" name. In short (may be a "Capt Obvious" review of facts for many, but not all)...

* TAG Group is run (mostly owned?) by Mansour Ojjeh
* Mansour Ojjeh also owns 25% of McLaren Group
* TAG Group is also the name behind the McLaren/Porsche partnership "TAG engine" of which Ojjeh and Dennis made happen via Porsche.
* TAG Group used to own the Heuer watch brand (TAG Heuer), but sold that off to LVMH awhile back (LVMH kept the "TAG" part of the "TAG Heuer" name even if no longer related to TAG Group)
* LVMH is moving the TAG Heuer sponsorship from McLaren to RBR, but keeping the relationship open with McLaren via new Chandon sponsorship.
* According to JS, Ojjeh is in the process of selling off his McLaren shares. Is that ALL or just some shares? I see reports as far back as 2014 about that. Also I think some of the drama around who to partner with Alonso last year may have fractured the relationship between Dennis and Ojjeh. It's not clear to me if it is a full, partial or no divorce with McLaren

Anyhow, so RBR having "TAG Heuer" (watch brand) on the car is well known at this point. The potential is that the engine might be labeled as "TAG" (Techniques d'Avant Garde) as well? Even if there is no longer any corporate link between the two "TAG" names. That also speaks to the "Ron will not be happy" because TAG from an F1 perspective has only previously been a McLaren "thing". Its maybe a bit of stealing some heritage (even if McLaren really has no control over the name "TAG")

I also agree that it will be Renault power, but probably rebadged as something else (TAG, Infiniti, Nissan, etc.) I care less about who's name is on it, and am more curious about who will be doing development on it. I "assume" that this will be Renault and that for 2016 there will not be any special RBR version of that engine other than what you would get with any customer engine deal (i.e. nothing different than what RBR does today as far as car specific integration tweaks).

Richard

[knighty]

All now announced on Autosport

Red-bull TAG-Heuer

Renault take over Lotus

Job done

Interesting Christioan Horner said Renaults tie up with Ilmor now gives them confidence....ouch!!!

[VIVA GT]

So, now this has been announced I suppose we'll have to ready ourselves for the Running like clockwork cliché's, and if they have an engine problem hearing it described as second-hand! (Owners of digital timepieces, please ask a grown-up for an explanation!)

[Paradise City]

I would certainly say this announcement is good timing.

Red Bull will be one to watch next year.

But the clock is running out to get the car ready in time.

I'm gonna have a great year next year.

[David A Scott]

Originally Posted by Paradise City

I would certainly say this announcement is good timing.

Red Bull will be one to watch next year.

But the clock is running out to get the car ready in time.

I'm gonna have a great year next year.

groan...

[YorkshireLad]

The way redbull has portrayed the 'new' engine in the first advertisement is just laughable. An engineless redbull chassis, some clueless looking tag engineers. Lots of hype, all for nothing.

[VIVA GT]

Originally Posted by Paradise City

I would certainly say this announcement is good timing.

Red Bull will be one to watch next year.

But the clock is running out to get the car ready in time.

I'm gonna have a great year next year.

Is this a wind up?

[bjohnsonsmith]

Apparently, Ron fell out with TAG Heuer CEO Jean-Claude Biver, resulting in McLaren losing a raft of sponsors in 2013.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/122135

[Neppatsrev Xam]

Toro Rosso switch to Ferrari

http://www.scuderiatororosso.com/en_...ne-and-drivers

and of course they stick with the same driver line up(no reason to change it)

[YorkshireLad]

Max will no doubt make another year of f1 entertaining. He's got a talent, hopefully the engine switch will further enhance that.

[Richard C]

"Red Bull TAG Heuer" sounds fine, but putting the name "TAG Heuer" on the engine... is just odd. But if you have a car named after a sports drink, you can have it powered by a watch!

Richard