|
||||||||||
|
||||||||||
16 Jan 2020, 15:59 (Ref:3951956) | #26 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 5,857
|
Quote:
I don't know what all that company I mention has done to refresh the idea other than to tie it to the very diesel like ignition system. And I think they also think that same company has diesel solutions as well? Richard |
||
__________________
To paraphrase Mark Twain... "I'm sorry I wrote such a long post; I didn't have time to write a short one." |
17 Jan 2020, 00:46 (Ref:3952029) | #27 | |
Veteran
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 3,211
|
A lot of old ideas are made more feasible by modern electronic control in engine management both on the ignition and fuel side. Modern two stroke outboards are using 100 to 1 oil mix to meet with both air and water pollution issues for instance. I think the idea of getting the motor industry to turn the ship around and abandon all the work done in the last ten years on electrification is day dream stuff in the extreme.
The fleet emission average set by legislators just about forces them to go down the path of zero emissions at the tail pipe and this capped by regional bans and charges on certain vehicles reinforces that approach. I cannot see F1 doing anything that clashes with what the mainstream manufacturers are doing as the political ramifications would be simply devastating. Imagine if Mercedes were to agree to a two stroke motor, the political back lash would be something that MB could not tolerate at any level. That is why I conjectured that there must be some other agenda going on here because as a serious question it does not hold water at any level. |
|
|
17 Jan 2020, 07:51 (Ref:3952046) | #28 | |||
Veteran
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 5,651
|
Quote:
|
|||
__________________
Incognito: An Italian phrase meaning Nice Gearchange! |
17 Jan 2020, 08:50 (Ref:3952051) | #29 | |||
Ten-Tenths Hall of Fame
Veteran
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 14,830
|
Quote:
Agree with Casper that the whole idea of 2 stroke F1 engines is fantasy.... |
|||
__________________
Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere. (Einstein) |
17 Jan 2020, 09:24 (Ref:3952055) | #30 | |
Veteran
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 813
|
A number of posters appear to be assuming that there is a need for 2 stroke engines to run on a fuel/oil mixture,like an old lawnmower engine.With direct injection and forced induction,it doesn't have to be that way.There is no reason why lubrication can't be done by circulating oil in the way it is done at present and in the huge marine engines I referenced in an earlier post it is done this way.As long as we are using forced induction It just needs a valve ,or port, to open for the entrance of air and the fuel can be injected just before ignition.
I don't think i have seen a reference on this forum to the importance of direct injection to the big gains in thermal efficiency of the last few years.Not so many years ago it was verging on impossible to use compression ratios of more than about 13.5:1 because of detonation.Now that fuel is injected directly the rules limit the engines to 18:1 and this is with forced induction.If the engines under discussion don't have to scrape a set of piston rings up and down one extra time in each combustion cycle,won't there be another big step in efficiency gains?The timing of valve/port openings might be some way from what we are used to and may take a little time to optimise but it would be unwise to dismiss the idea of a move to a different form of engine because of what they used to be like. |
|
|
17 Jan 2020, 11:14 (Ref:3952066) | #31 | |||
Veteran
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 5,651
|
Quote:
|
|||
__________________
Incognito: An Italian phrase meaning Nice Gearchange! |
17 Jan 2020, 11:26 (Ref:3952069) | #32 | |||
Ten-Tenths Hall of Fame
Veteran
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 14,830
|
Quote:
|
|||
__________________
Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere. (Einstein) |
19 Jan 2020, 01:40 (Ref:3952251) | #33 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,120
|
I had to laugh when I first saw this thread about 2 smokes in F1. It is funny to witness growing up that every engine I used were two strokes (outboards, dirt bikes, snowmachines and jetskis). The only 4 strokes were automobile s, lawnmowers and generators.
Then 4 stroke technology entered into the snowmobile and motocross market. Everyone thought they were uncompetitive and heavy. They didn't fare very well on the race track at first, but now 4 strokes dominate the scene on the motocross track and certain sled tracks (sans snowcross). Manufacturers who continue with the two stroke engines (ie BRP using etec technology in their sleds and outboards claim better power to weight ratio. 4 strokes have come down significantly in weight but I prefer using a high performance 4 stroke engine in my various toys vs two stroke. They just aren't as reliable and you still have to add oil into the reservoir which is not cheap. Guys are constantly blowing up new two strokes in their sleds and outboards with the new tech. I have blown several engines myself. So I just can't imagine a two stroke engine in an F1 car. The general shift was to get away from them and now they want to go back? Sent from my SM-G955W using Tapatalk |
||
|
19 Jan 2020, 06:35 (Ref:3952261) | #34 | ||
Ten-Tenths Hall of Fame
Veteran
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 14,830
|
What cannot be imagined is a two stroke engine ‘as we remember them’ in an F1 car, not a possible future development where each cylinder has a firing stroke every revolution.....
|
||
__________________
Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere. (Einstein) |
19 Jan 2020, 07:45 (Ref:3952263) | #35 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 5,651
|
So, what you're saying Mike is that if this happens, it will be something totally new, and not a load of BSA Bantam engines bolted together then?
|
||
__________________
Incognito: An Italian phrase meaning Nice Gearchange! |
19 Jan 2020, 09:57 (Ref:3952268) | #36 | |||
Ten-Tenths Hall of Fame
Veteran
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 14,830
|
Quote:
When you look at some of the extraordinary engine developments over the last 20 years, I’m sure ‘something new’ could happen. But whether it’s needed in F1, I’m not so sure..... |
|||
__________________
Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere. (Einstein) |
19 Jan 2020, 10:17 (Ref:3952269) | #37 | ||
14th
1% Club
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 42,589
|
In a way it will always be the old technology; It bangs and then reciprocal motions turns into rotational. It could also be viewed as new because they will come up with new ideas to improve on the inherent challenges.
I’m all for it. Let’s play. Although there is already a series where old technology is making a comeback, Formula E. |
||
__________________
Seriously not taking motorsport too seriously. |
19 Jan 2020, 10:21 (Ref:3952270) | #38 | |||
Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 6,791
|
Quote:
Everyone is talking about old tech, do you really think F1 teams would be sitting still? After all, if 20 years ago you'd been told that Mercedes would be producing (in round figures) 1000bhp from a Toyota Prius you wouldn't have believed it. I'm sure 2-stroke's best days are in front of us. Small and light, if you can get power from less space and weight that's got to be a win/win. Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk |
|||
__________________
Midgetman - known as Max Tyler to the world. MaxAttaq! |
19 Jan 2020, 23:18 (Ref:3952370) | #39 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,120
|
Yeah when the two strokes were on the outs because of emissions, the twos and 4's were racing together and the 4 strokers were hitting the finish line first after a while (at least around here).
Lighter and faster is always better in reference to sleds and motocross bikes especially in situations where you need to man handle them (mountain riding with sleds, motocross tracks). Don't F1 cars need to be a minimum weight? If the rules changed to make the car shed a substantial amount of weight then a two stroke engine can be an option? I seem to recall comparing the specs on a Yamaha outboard (let's say 150hp) to the BRP e-tec 150 hp two stroke and Yamaha claimed it to be the same. I personally prefer the Yamahas over the two strokes because they are much quieter, no need to add injection oil all the time and more reliable. We blew up two etecs on our boat. I can only assume a two stroke would be great in an F1 car when F1 engineers would get their fingers and brains into designing them. Sent from my SM-G955W using Tapatalk |
||
|
20 Jan 2020, 14:00 (Ref:3952450) | #40 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 813
|
Quote:
Some of us have grasped this part.What needs to be made clearer,and I don't know how to make it any clearer,is that a 2 stroke does not have to have it's lubrication burned as the mixture of fuel and oil makes it's way through the engine.You can have a lubrication system entirely separate to a fuel system and use the same oil throughout the race. |
||
|
20 Jan 2020, 15:08 (Ref:3952461) | #41 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 5,090
|
Quote:
|
||
|
20 Jan 2020, 16:39 (Ref:3952467) | #42 | |
Veteran
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 813
|
I suppose somebody had to..... On a slightly different note;I have wondered if the current generation of engines would actually run without spark plugs.The compression ratios are high without the boost and with boost,is it likely that the injection of fuel would initiate combustion? |
|
|
20 Jan 2020, 16:46 (Ref:3952468) | #43 | |
Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 18,396
|
Well it’s a mystery where F1 should go. I would rather have conventional engines. The hybrid turbos are ok, but it would be fine without them
|
|
__________________
He who dares wins! He who hesitates is lost! |
20 Jan 2020, 18:23 (Ref:3952476) | #44 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 5,857
|
Quote:
http://achatespower.com/wp-content/u...19-01-0068.pdf Basically this is not a classic old-school two stroke that pulls the air/fuel/oil mixture into and through the crankcase. It uses direct fuel injection with I believe no added oil in the fuel. The crankcase is sealed like a regular four stroke. Oil control rings are not in the classic location just below the compression rings, but instead are further down on the piston. This is to prevent/reduce the amount of oil that makes its way into the two stroke ports. Oil is scraped off the walls before the port. The oil control rings don't overlap the ports. They also use special hone patterns in the cylinder walls (I assume to increase oil retention in the areas above the oil control ring). According to the article, they are getting similar oil consumption levels as classic four stroke designs, but with better efficiency. The technology looks interesting and probably has a home somewhere, but so far I am not convinced it should be used in F1. Richard |
||
__________________
To paraphrase Mark Twain... "I'm sorry I wrote such a long post; I didn't have time to write a short one." |
21 Jan 2020, 07:48 (Ref:3952533) | #45 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 5,651
|
I watched an interesting Royal Automobile Club Talk Show interview with Gordon Murray om youtube at the weekend. He mentioned that they were exploring 2 stroke engines years ago...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NkmS7FbApVk It's an interesting 1 hour 16 minutes, so make sure you have a comfortable seat. |
||
__________________
Incognito: An Italian phrase meaning Nice Gearchange! |
21 Jan 2020, 08:37 (Ref:3952545) | #46 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 10,932
|
Quote:
https://thecorrespondent.com/7056/wh...61200-afaa6e5d Article here (it's long, but well written) on electric v fossil fuel cars and CO2 output over the entire lifespan of the vehicle, from production, through fuel generation, to the driving. This assumes a lifetime of the vehicle of 135,000 miles. tl;dr - If your power is generated through 82% fossil fuels (apparently the NL mix at the time the article was written) then the electric car comes out producing 35-42 (metric) tons of CO2. The petrol car produces 50-53 tons. If we run off of 100% renewable energy (which we aren't, but Scotlands actually had a few days when we've had 100% renewable only), the electric car produces 14-21 tons over its lifetime. Basically, the EV makes back the battery CO2 relatively quickly. This works for road cars, but not for racing cars because they don't do high enough mileage to gain it back. However, it's hard to make the argument against EVs based on CO2 output whilst we all want stonking great V12s. It's easier to say 'I don't like them due to lack of sound, gears, and all the fun stuff that makes racing cars fun'. And it's also impossible to argue against that stance as it's opinion. |
||
|
21 Jan 2020, 16:10 (Ref:3952602) | #47 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 9,744
|
that really is a great article. thanks for sharing!
|
||
__________________
Home, is where I want to be but I guess I'm already there I come home, she lifted up her wings guess that this must be the place |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
How superior are turbocharged engines compaired to NA engines in sportscar racing? | chernaudi | Sportscar & GT Racing | 16 | 27 Dec 2006 18:07 |
Confirmed "Peugeot engines for Arrows in 2001!!" | Stonegold | Formula One | 11 | 21 Jul 2000 10:21 |
Customer Cars / Engines | bobdrummond | Formula One | 1 | 30 May 2000 17:28 |
Motorcycle engines and the fuel they run on | Steve Hart | Racing Technology | 1 | 19 Apr 2000 22:38 |