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Old 16 Jan 2020, 15:59 (Ref:3951956)   #26
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Originally Posted by Mike Bell View Post
Hopefully not going OT, but opposed piston 2 stroke engines go back a long way. Here’s a couple, admittedly diesel......
Yeah, it's not a new idea. Given the age of the ICE concept, I expect there are few new ideas as far as configurations. Occasionally I see some really odd new ones, but they are just variations on old ideas.

I don't know what all that company I mention has done to refresh the idea other than to tie it to the very diesel like ignition system. And I think they also think that same company has diesel solutions as well?

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Old 17 Jan 2020, 00:46 (Ref:3952029)   #27
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A lot of old ideas are made more feasible by modern electronic control in engine management both on the ignition and fuel side. Modern two stroke outboards are using 100 to 1 oil mix to meet with both air and water pollution issues for instance. I think the idea of getting the motor industry to turn the ship around and abandon all the work done in the last ten years on electrification is day dream stuff in the extreme.

The fleet emission average set by legislators just about forces them to go down the path of zero emissions at the tail pipe and this capped by regional bans and charges on certain vehicles reinforces that approach. I cannot see F1 doing anything that clashes with what the mainstream manufacturers are doing as the political ramifications would be simply devastating. Imagine if Mercedes were to agree to a two stroke motor, the political back lash would be something that MB could not tolerate at any level.

That is why I conjectured that there must be some other agenda going on here because as a serious question it does not hold water at any level.
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Old 17 Jan 2020, 07:51 (Ref:3952046)   #28
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Hopefully not going OT, but opposed piston 2 stroke engines go back a long way. Here’s a couple, admittedly diesel......

Napier Deltic-

https://www.dieselarmy.com/engine-te...-diesel-works/

Commer TS3. It made an unmistakable noise

https://www.enginebuildermag.com/201...t-twelve-dyno/
Thanks again for the Deltic & Commer links Mike. Two iconic engines that I remember from my childhood for the way they sounded totally different to anything else. As a side note, I think the famous Ecurie Ecosse transporter is Commer DS3 powered?
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Old 17 Jan 2020, 08:50 (Ref:3952051)   #29
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Thanks again for the Deltic & Commer links Mike. Two iconic engines that I remember from my childhood for the way they sounded totally different to anything else. As a side note, I think the famous Ecurie Ecosse transporter is Commer DS3 powered?
It is indeed. Those DS3 engines howl! When I was an apprentice our local council dustcarts were Commer 2 strokes and from memory they were very reliable.

Agree with Casper that the whole idea of 2 stroke F1 engines is fantasy....
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Old 17 Jan 2020, 09:24 (Ref:3952055)   #30
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A number of posters appear to be assuming that there is a need for 2 stroke engines to run on a fuel/oil mixture,like an old lawnmower engine.With direct injection and forced induction,it doesn't have to be that way.There is no reason why lubrication can't be done by circulating oil in the way it is done at present and in the huge marine engines I referenced in an earlier post it is done this way.As long as we are using forced induction It just needs a valve ,or port, to open for the entrance of air and the fuel can be injected just before ignition.
I don't think i have seen a reference on this forum to the importance of direct injection to the big gains in thermal efficiency of the last few years.Not so many years ago it was verging on impossible to use compression ratios of more than about 13.5:1 because of detonation.Now that fuel is injected directly the rules limit the engines to 18:1 and this is with forced induction.If the engines under discussion don't have to scrape a set of piston rings up and down one extra time in each combustion cycle,won't there be another big step in efficiency gains?The timing of valve/port openings might be some way from what we are used to and may take a little time to optimise but it would be unwise to dismiss the idea of a move to a different form of engine because of what they used to be like.
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Old 17 Jan 2020, 11:14 (Ref:3952066)   #31
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A number of posters appear to be assuming that there is a need for 2 stroke engines to run on a fuel/oil mixture,like an old lawnmower engine.With direct injection and forced induction,it doesn't have to be that way.There is no reason why lubrication can't be done by circulating oil in the way it is done at present and in the huge marine engines I referenced in an earlier post it is done this way.As long as we are using forced induction It just needs a valve ,or port, to open for the entrance of air and the fuel can be injected just before ignition.
I don't think i have seen a reference on this forum to the importance of direct injection to the big gains in thermal efficiency of the last few years.Not so many years ago it was verging on impossible to use compression ratios of more than about 13.5:1 because of detonation.Now that fuel is injected directly the rules limit the engines to 18:1 and this is with forced induction.If the engines under discussion don't have to scrape a set of piston rings up and down one extra time in each combustion cycle,won't there be another big step in efficiency gains?The timing of valve/port openings might be some way from what we are used to and may take a little time to optimise but it would be unwise to dismiss the idea of a move to a different form of engine because of what they used to be like.
To be honest I find this re-visiting old ideas with new technology fascinating. As you say a modern twe-stroke engine should be significantly more efficient than one that takes twice as long to get to another firing stroke. Even if ultimately these engines don't make it into F1 the whole idea has sparked some interest with me.
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Old 17 Jan 2020, 11:26 (Ref:3952069)   #32
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A number of posters appear to be assuming that there is a need for 2 stroke engines to run on a fuel/oil mixture,like an old lawnmower engine.With direct injection and forced induction,it doesn't have to be that way. It would be unwise to dismiss the idea of a move to a different form of engine because of what they used to be like.
Yup, you’re right.
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Old 19 Jan 2020, 01:40 (Ref:3952251)   #33
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I had to laugh when I first saw this thread about 2 smokes in F1. It is funny to witness growing up that every engine I used were two strokes (outboards, dirt bikes, snowmachines and jetskis). The only 4 strokes were automobile s, lawnmowers and generators.

Then 4 stroke technology entered into the snowmobile and motocross market. Everyone thought they were uncompetitive and heavy. They didn't fare very well on the race track at first, but now 4 strokes dominate the scene on the motocross track and certain sled tracks (sans snowcross).

Manufacturers who continue with the two stroke engines (ie BRP using etec technology in their sleds and outboards claim better power to weight ratio. 4 strokes have come down significantly in weight but I prefer using a high performance 4 stroke engine in my various toys vs two stroke. They just aren't as reliable and you still have to add oil into the reservoir which is not cheap. Guys are constantly blowing up new two strokes in their sleds and outboards with the new tech. I have blown several engines myself.

So I just can't imagine a two stroke engine in an F1 car. The general shift was to get away from them and now they want to go back?

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Old 19 Jan 2020, 06:35 (Ref:3952261)   #34
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I had to laugh when I first saw this thread about 2 smokes in F1.

So I just can't imagine a two stroke engine in an F1 car. The general shift was to get away from them and now they want to go back?
What cannot be imagined is a two stroke engine ‘as we remember them’ in an F1 car, not a possible future development where each cylinder has a firing stroke every revolution.....
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Old 19 Jan 2020, 07:45 (Ref:3952263)   #35
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What cannot be imagined is a two stroke engine ‘as we remember them’ in an F1 car, not a possible future development where each cylinder has a firing stroke every revolution.....
So, what you're saying Mike is that if this happens, it will be something totally new, and not a load of BSA Bantam engines bolted together then?
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Old 19 Jan 2020, 09:57 (Ref:3952268)   #36
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So, what you're saying Mike is that if this happens, it will be something totally new, and not a load of BSA Bantam engines bolted together then?
You realise most on here won’t even know what a BSA Bantam is!

When you look at some of the extraordinary engine developments over the last 20 years, I’m sure ‘something new’ could happen. But whether it’s needed in F1, I’m not so sure.....
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Old 19 Jan 2020, 10:17 (Ref:3952269)   #37
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In a way it will always be the old technology; It bangs and then reciprocal motions turns into rotational. It could also be viewed as new because they will come up with new ideas to improve on the inherent challenges.

I’m all for it. Let’s play.

Although there is already a series where old technology is making a comeback, Formula E.
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Old 19 Jan 2020, 10:21 (Ref:3952270)   #38
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Then 4 stroke technology entered into the snowmobile and motocross market. Everyone thought they were uncompetitive and heavy. They didn't fare very well on the race track at first, but now 4 strokes dominate the scene on the motocross track and certain sled tracks (sans snowcross).



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Certainly in bike racing the 2-stokes were legislated out on the basis of their pollution. It was nothing to do with competitiveness.

Everyone is talking about old tech, do you really think F1 teams would be sitting still? After all, if 20 years ago you'd been told that Mercedes would be producing (in round figures) 1000bhp from a Toyota Prius you wouldn't have believed it.

I'm sure 2-stroke's best days are in front of us. Small and light, if you can get power from less space and weight that's got to be a win/win.


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Old 19 Jan 2020, 23:18 (Ref:3952370)   #39
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Yeah when the two strokes were on the outs because of emissions, the twos and 4's were racing together and the 4 strokers were hitting the finish line first after a while (at least around here).

Lighter and faster is always better in reference to sleds and motocross bikes especially in situations where you need to man handle them (mountain riding with sleds, motocross tracks).

Don't F1 cars need to be a minimum weight? If the rules changed to make the car shed a substantial amount of weight then a two stroke engine can be an option?

I seem to recall comparing the specs on a Yamaha outboard (let's say 150hp) to the BRP e-tec 150 hp two stroke and Yamaha claimed it to be the same. I personally prefer the Yamahas over the two strokes because they are much quieter, no need to add injection oil all the time and more reliable. We blew up two etecs on our boat.

I can only assume a two stroke would be great in an F1 car when F1 engineers would get their fingers and brains into designing them.

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Old 20 Jan 2020, 14:00 (Ref:3952450)   #40
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What cannot be imagined is a two stroke engine ‘as we remember them’ in an F1 car, not a possible future development where each cylinder has a firing stroke every revolution.....

Some of us have grasped this part.What needs to be made clearer,and I don't know how to make it any clearer,is that a 2 stroke does not have to have it's lubrication burned as the mixture of fuel and oil makes it's way through the engine.You can have a lubrication system entirely separate to a fuel system and use the same oil throughout the race.
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Old 20 Jan 2020, 15:08 (Ref:3952461)   #41
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Some of us have grasped this part.What needs to be made clearer,and I don't know how to make it any clearer,is that a Ferrari 4 stroke does not have to have it's lubrication burned as the mixture of fuel and oil makes it's way through the engine.You can have a lubrication system entirely separate to a fuel system and use the same oil throughout the race.
Fixed that
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Old 20 Jan 2020, 16:39 (Ref:3952467)   #42
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Fixed that

I suppose somebody had to.....




On a slightly different note;I have wondered if the current generation of engines would actually run without spark plugs.The compression ratios are high without the boost and with boost,is it likely that the injection of fuel would initiate combustion?
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Old 20 Jan 2020, 16:46 (Ref:3952468)   #43
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Well it’s a mystery where F1 should go. I would rather have conventional engines. The hybrid turbos are ok, but it would be fine without them
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Old 20 Jan 2020, 18:23 (Ref:3952476)   #44
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Some of us have grasped this part.What needs to be made clearer,and I don't know how to make it any clearer,is that a 2 stroke does not have to have it's lubrication burned as the mixture of fuel and oil makes it's way through the engine.You can have a lubrication system entirely separate to a fuel system and use the same oil throughout the race.
I agree. If anyone is curious how they handle lubrication see the article below:

http://achatespower.com/wp-content/u...19-01-0068.pdf

Basically this is not a classic old-school two stroke that pulls the air/fuel/oil mixture into and through the crankcase. It uses direct fuel injection with I believe no added oil in the fuel. The crankcase is sealed like a regular four stroke. Oil control rings are not in the classic location just below the compression rings, but instead are further down on the piston. This is to prevent/reduce the amount of oil that makes its way into the two stroke ports. Oil is scraped off the walls before the port. The oil control rings don't overlap the ports. They also use special hone patterns in the cylinder walls (I assume to increase oil retention in the areas above the oil control ring). According to the article, they are getting similar oil consumption levels as classic four stroke designs, but with better efficiency.

The technology looks interesting and probably has a home somewhere, but so far I am not convinced it should be used in F1.

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Old 21 Jan 2020, 07:48 (Ref:3952533)   #45
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I watched an interesting Royal Automobile Club Talk Show interview with Gordon Murray om youtube at the weekend. He mentioned that they were exploring 2 stroke engines years ago...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NkmS7FbApVk
It's an interesting 1 hour 16 minutes, so make sure you have a comfortable seat.
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Old 21 Jan 2020, 08:37 (Ref:3952545)   #46
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i find i am also intrigued by the fuel, how they will make it, and whether or not it can also be used in their cargo planes?

i would imagine a lot of work has to be done before this becomes a relaity in the next 5 years no?

from the article:

'Research presented at the conference showed that electric racing cars could be responsible for twice the level of carbon emissions as hybrid racing cars, because of the amount produced when building the batteries.'

also would like top hear more on this. on one hand, what he says about batteries doesn't surprise me at all, but on the other hand, dont hybrid cars also use batteries which i am assuming also present this same problems as the electric car batteries he is talking about?
This only applies to racing cars, which have a relatively short life-span compared to road cars. Equally, they also have an incredibly small CO2 output compared to the rest of the world.

https://thecorrespondent.com/7056/wh...61200-afaa6e5d

Article here (it's long, but well written) on electric v fossil fuel cars and CO2 output over the entire lifespan of the vehicle, from production, through fuel generation, to the driving. This assumes a lifetime of the vehicle of 135,000 miles.

tl;dr - If your power is generated through 82% fossil fuels (apparently the NL mix at the time the article was written) then the electric car comes out producing 35-42 (metric) tons of CO2. The petrol car produces 50-53 tons. If we run off of 100% renewable energy (which we aren't, but Scotlands actually had a few days when we've had 100% renewable only), the electric car produces 14-21 tons over its lifetime.

Basically, the EV makes back the battery CO2 relatively quickly. This works for road cars, but not for racing cars because they don't do high enough mileage to gain it back. However, it's hard to make the argument against EVs based on CO2 output whilst we all want stonking great V12s. It's easier to say 'I don't like them due to lack of sound, gears, and all the fun stuff that makes racing cars fun'. And it's also impossible to argue against that stance as it's opinion.
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Old 21 Jan 2020, 16:10 (Ref:3952602)   #47
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that really is a great article. thanks for sharing!
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