Delta FF2000 and F4

[Chris Townsend]

Disambiguation [as they say on Wikipedia], this thread has nothing to do with the Delta F3 cars built in Italy in the 1970s

The main period sources for data on cars built by the Horseless Carriage Company of Hove are two features on the firm, one in Motoring News, the other in Autosport, a few advertisements in which chassis numbers are given, and some invaluable observations made between 1980 and 1984 by Alan Brown, which he's been kind enough to share with me.

One of the key purposes of this thread is to clarify period histories for the numerous owners now running Deltas in FF2000, and if it works maybe we'll have a go at Crossles and Royales!

Delta chassis numbers seem to run sequentially regardless of year and model

001 T77 first works car, Richard Wills from June 1977, Mike White's spare car early 1978

002 T77 second works car for Bruce Coate-Bond, destroyed at Snetterton late 1977

003 T77 works car late season for Mike Quinn. For sale by Delta with chassis number, AS 1.12.77 p. 78, 'two races only'

004-5 unknown presume T78s

006 T78. Now owned by Nigel Grant and said to be ex Ian Briggs F4 car. However, the Motoring News piece on Delta in early 1978 gives chassis number 009 for the Briggs car and calls it a T784. Briggs's car sold to Nigel Rees and used in F4 in 1983

007 T78 Works car for Mike White early 1978. For sale by Delta with chassis number in Autosport in late 1978

008 unknown T79

009 T784 according to Motoring News for Ian Briggs, see 006

010-020 unknown T78s

021 T78, now owned by Ian Rowley and said to be Mike White's championship winner. If so the car in which White finished, rather than began, the season [see 007] 1984 owned by Tony Sturgess [c/n Alan Brown] to Colin Meluish 1985 and retained 1986

unknown T78s
Paul Smith - car exists, just sold by Delta to Japan. Did it have a chassis number or history?
works rental car early 1978 for Barry Pigot and Jorge Koechlin [I think that this and the Smith car are 005 and 006]
Frank Bradley - not before mid season, then retained early 1979 as a show car then sold to Keith Fitzsimmons, April 1979
Richard Peacock
Leif Jorgensen [Denmark], unknown 1978 raced by him 1979
John Holmes [1980]

022-026 unknown T78/T79s

027 T79 new to Scorpion Racing and used by Roy Goff [chassis number Alan Brown] unknown 1980-1983, then Alan Tulloch, and 1985 Alan Parke. Now owned by Peter Richards

028 T79 David Beattie 1979, then to Geoff Keen 1980 [chassis number Alan Brown; ex Beattie AS] to Mark Storer 1981 [chassis number Alan Brown] now owned by Mark Storer

029-033 unknown T79s and early T80s

T79 owners without chassis numbers
Kris Nissen now owned by Warren Moye
Ron Kluit [Holland]
Works, run for Gerry Wittenden in UK and Mike White in Euro series after his F3 season went sour
Works for John Herne
works for Basil Mann
Frank Bradley
Construction News driven by Barry Brown, Richard Wills and Basil Mann [once]
Autowindscreens, used as a show car, then to White for late 1979
Fred Krab [Holland]
Hugo de Groot [Holland]
David Lawrence [1980] unknown 1979 then to Martin Stone 1983 ['ex Lawrence' Autosport 14.7.83 p. 30]
Michael Bruno [1980]
Thierry Burkhardt 1980 upgraded to T79/80
Angelos Coursmounis [1980]

034 T80 Saeed Roshanzamir 1980 [chassis number Alan Brown]

035-41 unknown T80s

042 T80 unknown 1980 then Ronnie Grant 1981-82, chassis number Alan Brown both years

043-046 unknown T80s

047 T81 [but chassis number in series suggests this had a life in 1980 prior to update] works car for Dave Coyne 1981 [chassis number Alan Brown]

048-049 unknown T80s

050 T80 Cor Euser owned since new

unknown T80s
Dave Manners, said to be the first customer car AS 7.2.80 p.44
works for Jorge Koechlin
Stephen Pettitt
Will Arif
Henny Vollenberg
Dennis McCall [Northern Ireland]
Leslie Wright [Ireland] to James Tolerton ‘ex Leslie Wright T80’ AS 9.2.84 p. 27
P.J. Fallon

Delta T81

chassis numbers above 050 are unknown but we have
Ronnie Maybin and Jackie Christie with cars in Northern Ireland in 2000 and we have Tony Hancock with a new T814 in F4 in 1981
Two T81s sold new to Walter Lechner

Delta T83
1983: Malcolm Hull; 1984 Andy and Simon McBeath [HC] A/S 8.3.84 ex Hull T83

There are more unknowns, especially of Dutch drivers, but I'm not yet sure of models for many of them [so entry lists for Euro rounds would be handy...] and will address these separately

Chris

[delta]

Brilliant Chris "thanks" The ex BMTR car is still in the UK and we are running Baba in our HistoricFF2000 this year. I will post the full history of my car later. Makes interesting reading if its all true.

[delta]

Over the next year i will contact owners and register their chassis numbers but this is what i have so far.
My car chassis no 21.This is supposed to of been the Mike White 1979 championship winning car. Now then i bought this car of Cliff Watts who installed an Imp then ran in F4 in the early to mid 80's.He said he had bought the rolling chassis of Adrian Reynard..So either Adrian wanted to keep the car out of the way or maybe he just wanted the engine. Will find out as enough time has lapsed and I'm sure we could get a positive answer.I bought the Delta in 1986 and ran her in F4 and Mono in the 80's before putting the car back to Pinto trim in 1990.Have raced and hired her out in F4 URSFF2000 and now Historic FF2000.

[Chris Townsend]

Originally Posted by delta

Over the next year i will contact owners and register their chassis numbers but this is what i have so far.
My car chassis no 21.This is supposed to of been the Mike White 1979 championship winning car. Now then i bought this car of Cliff Watts who installed an Imp then ran in F4 in the early to mid 80's.He said he had bought the rolling chassis of Adrian Reynard..So either Adrian wanted to keep the car out of the way or maybe he just wanted the engine. Will find out as enough time has lapsed and I'm sure we could get a positive answer.I bought the Delta in 1986 and ran her in F4 and Mono in the 80's before putting the car back to Pinto trim in 1990.Have raced and hired her out in F4 URSFF2000 and now Historic FF2000.

Interesting Ian, because that history can't seemingly accommodate the observations of 021 on the Sturgess and Meluish cars, and I remember Cliff Watts with that car, and as you say it was the early to mid 80s. Possibly Reynard bought it to have a look at the design, especially when he was trying to dig himself out of the hole he created with the SF80.

Oh I love a good conundrum!

[Simon Hadfield]

Almost certainly Adrian would have taken the car in part chop - to facilitate a deal he would take almost anything that didn't eat!

[driftwood]

Ian now realy would Chris lie to you?
me yes thry my teeth "Honest Ian dont have any money left to buy you a beer!"

what T81 # was the Dave coyne car
what about pre HCR deltas the IRF cars?

[delta]

Kevin you are always welcome in the Delta awning for a beer"or two".Walter Lechner we thought had several Delta's to use as School cars and every now and then someone from Germany will e mail me with pics of a Delta found somewhere.The IRF4,s are still around and one has a motor bike engine in it. "yuck".The T83 also is used on the hills. There are still Three Delta's in Ireland and the T814 Hancock car is now owned by Alan White Aldworth and raced by his son in the very first HistoricFF2000 race at Cadwell 2007.This race was won by some young upstart in another Delta.That's it for a while as i said i will take the time this year and do a Duncan Rabagliati note book in hand and obtain chassis No's and history on all the Delta's i know of.

[driftwood]

Ian is the beer recycled?
yes in 78 AS mags there is a mention of Walter lechner taking at least 1 car
last year i wa sin a garage of M25 J 9 area and man had Imp engined delta
i mumbled i might be interested n buying it but it was not for sale then
later i heard some other bloke bought it (cheap) and is rebuilding it

Ideally i would like to buy a Ff200 delta but not a fresh turn key car but something to rebuild/ sit in my museum so if anyone has one let me know
i have some spare £ but not a lot till i sell off at least 3 of my f3 cars and my F BMW cars

Can i get a cure on the NHS?

[delta]

Would love to help there Kevin but we want cars on the grid. Too many sat in peoples garages gathering dust. Makes me mad.

[driftwood]

mate someone said your already mad!
I could be tempted to run the car but 10 cars 1 pair of testicles
cant be 2 places at once!

[Alan Brown]

Not all in period.

T78-008 FF2000 Alan Goodman 1998
T79-024 F4 Hartwell (so Imp) Cliff Watts 1980 and 1981
T80-032 FF2000 Ian Fernihough 1997
T80T-040 FT Rowland Talbot 1.6 Don Manley 1981
T824C-056 Hill climb 1.1 Imp? Charles Barter 1983 ( and presumably the car he had in 1982) and then Richard Homer in 1985-7 and 1989

[driftwood]

T79-024 Cliiff watts car im sure is mentioned in a 79/80 AS snippet report of him buying so n so ff200 and fitting the Imp motor to it
he bought the car after he stopped racing Imp special saloons

[Peter Dunne]

Originally Posted by delta

There are still Three Delta's in Ireland...

Actually there are 4/5 (not sure about T83)

T79
T80
T81
T85
I stumbled accross another Delta that I never knew existed over here, a T83.

I'll try and get chassis #'s during the coming season.

[delta]

I have just checked the chassis no on my Delta and it is chassis no 024.

[delta]

T85 i think that's a FF1600 chassis. T83 was the last FF2000. I remember years ago when we built a car at the Autosport show someone showing me pictures of a full on ground effect car.?

[delta]

Thanks for all this info Alan.I have a couple of chassis that are a little diferent to the T models FF2000 and allways wondered if they were for Formula Talbot.Dont suppose you have any pictures of the T80T. Formula Talbot.

[Peter Dunne]

This is Paul O'Connell's T79 which has one the Irish Hillclimb Championship in 07, 08 and 09. As far as I can remember, its previous owners were: Eamonn Nagle, David Healy, John Naylor, Cyril Lynch and now Paul.

It currently has a 2.5 Warrior lump fitted. I asked Paul for the chassis number and he told me that not only has it not got one, but many Deltas of that era didnt have a chassis number so as to avoid import duty.

[Alan Brown]

Originally Posted by delta

Thanks for all this info Alan.I have a couple of chassis that are a little diferent to the T models FF2000 and allways wondered if they were for Formula Talbot.Dont suppose you have any pictures of the T80T. Formula Talbot.

I must be sad to have recorded a Formula Talbot chassis number!!! Perhaps I have a Sparton number as well. Definitely no photos.

The following is a curiosity. All the observations were at Gurston Down hill climbs.

1982 Chris Paterson T79/82C-041 1.1 (I guess an Imp).
1983 exactly the same programme details and sighting.
1985 Chris Paterson and Tony Tewson shared a car called a T79/85 1.1 but with the same chassis number as before.
1987 entered as T79/81-4 for Paterson and Clive Wooster (I did not record the chassis number but it has to be the same car).

[Peter Dunne]

This is the T80 that Ronnie Maybin won the Irish Hillclimb Championship with in 1997. I don't the history of the car before Ronnie, but I know that when he had it, it was fitted with a Vauxhall XE. He sold it to Cyril Lynch in 1999 with a high compression Pinto engine. Peter Mc Kinley drove it for Cyril on Irish hills in '99 and '00. It was unused until bought by its current owner, Pete Ray, in 2008

[Alan Brown]

IRF4 001 PROTO (this was what I recorded) was observed in 1980 being driven by Keith Hatton in a F4 race with a Ford engine.

The programme also had Adrian Baker in IRF 003 Hartwell. Although it raced at one of the two meetings that I saw I have no confirmation of chassis number.

[Peter Dunne]

Here is the T81 used by Ronnie Maybin until bought by Michael Roche in 2002.
Michael won the Irish Hillclimb Championship in 2003 with a Vauxhall XE engine and won again in 2005 with a turbo XE this time. I actually double drove this car with Michael in 2003 (pic below is me at a Hillclimb in Wexford!).
It is currently owned by Brendan Harpur and is now powered by an 1800 Zetec.

According to Joey Greenan, this is an ex works Delta that he drove at some point in its history.

[driftwood]

what car did kessie take back to paddyland from delta early last year or winter of year before it was a tired car i believe
im told it was over here " for sale" but irish owner sold it to another local lad

[Peter Dunne]

Originally Posted by driftwood

what car did kessie take back to paddyland from delta early last year or winter of year before it was a tired car i believe
im told it was over here " for sale" but irish owner sold it to another local lad

I know he has a Crossle 33F that appeared for the Phoenix Park.

Would that be it?

Its for sale again if so.

[delta]

That was John Naylor Delta which i tried to sell for him. Pete Ray came over and took the car back.

[delta]

Originally Posted by Alan Brown

I must be sad to have recorded a Formula Talbot chassis number!!! Perhaps I have a Sparton number as well. Definitely no photos.

The following is a curiosity. All the observations were at Gurston Down hill climbs.

1982 Chris Paterson T79/82C-041 1.1 (I guess an Imp).
1983 exactly the same programme details and sighting.
1985 Chris Paterson and Tony Tewson shared a car called a T79/85 1.1 but with the same chassis number as before.
1987 entered as T79/81-4 for Paterson and Clive Wooster (I did not record the chassis number but it has to be the same car).

This car in the Delta Motor Sport workshop and now being converted to FF2000 spec.Tell what is interesting is that Clive Wooster lives down the road and recently brought his phot album up for me to see.