[BTCC] BTCC 2021

[S griffin]

Exactly, sometimes it takes time for a car to get up to speed. Remember the hatchback BMW that first appeared in 2013? That took time to get up to speed, yet it won the championship the next year

[medius]

Anybody thinm BTC have been unusually quiet this winter?

[medius]

[forum server burp/double post]

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

BTCC Lap Records:
Thruxton - Q 2020 FK8, R 2020 Corolla
Snetterton - Q 2019 Corolla, R 2019 FK8
Silverstone - Q 2020 FK8, R 2019 330i
Knockhill - Q 2019 FK2

So the FK8 holds 3 lap records for current circuits on the calendar, the FK2 holds one - but the FK8 is not a quicker car?

Of the nine circuits on the calendar, looking at Q and R lap records, only the following have been set prior to 2019:
Brands Indy (R lap record S2000 Civic)
Brands GP
Oulton (Q only)

The evidence suggests that the newer models are quicker.

It was mainly the new Focus vs the old Focus I was referring to, though I’m open to be corrected on whether they were a step forward or not.

[Evantra]

Originally Posted by medius

Anybody thinm BTC have been unusually quiet this winter?

They've always had limited testing due to budget I think, but started testing this week with all three drivers.

Though with their driver line-up this year, I'd be quiet too!

[WestHam92]

Originally Posted by Evantra

They've always had limited testing due to budget I think, but started testing this week with all three drivers.

Though with their driver line-up this year, I'd be quiet too!

Sounds like you're being negative about something in the BTCC. Is that allowed?

[Pdh]

Originally Posted by peebee2

It was mainly the new Focus vs the old Focus I was referring to, though I’m open to be corrected on whether they were a step forward or not.

The new focus is definitely quicker than the old one. It had two pole positions with weight 36kg onboard and won 5 races between two drivers the last time the focus was ever that competitive was 2016 with Jordan and jackson

[BertMk2]

Originally Posted by Pdh

The new focus is definitely quicker than the old one. It had two pole positions with weight 36kg onboard and won 5 races between two drivers the last time the focus was ever that competitive was 2016 with Jordan and jackson

Is that down to the car or the drivers though?

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by BertMk2

Is that down to the car or the drivers though?

In 2016, Mat Jackson and Andy Jordan were driving the car - two very quick and capable drivers.
In 2020, Butcher and Ollie Jackson were driving the car.

Comparing 2016 qualifying times with 2020; the 2020 car was quicker on every single layout except for Snetterton and a wet Brands Indy.

I accept that there will also be some ballast and temperature considerations - but overall the newer Focus is consistently quicker.

[Matt K]

Originally Posted by WestHam92

Sounds like you're being negative about something in the BTCC. Is that allowed?

No to cancel culture in TenTenths

[crmalcolm]

So to try and see if their is a clear improvement in models, and development limitations being reached, I took a look at a few circuits to see if this is true.

The first challenge was identifying qualifying sessions where the conditions were broadly similar - so all damp/wet/drying sessions have been excluded.

To make the comparison, I looked at makes of car that were consistently entered by the same team, to avoid the potential that difference in performance is down to the team.

Going back to the original NGTC entries, this means that the performances of the Focus (Mk.3 to Mk.4), Civic (9th Gen to FK8) and BMW (125 to 330) were reviewed alongside the A-Class.

First up is Thruxton.

[crmalcolm]

Silverstone, Knockhill, Donington Park and Brands Indy all show a similar picture.

[crmalcolm]

And finally, when you combine the performance across all dry qualifying sessions for each marque, the difference seems clear.

Whilst it is probably too early to tell for certain, there appears to be trends emerging.
The move to a newer model car (and application of prior experience in the homologation process) allows a step change in performance to be achieved. In the early years of the A-Class development, its performance remained broadly similar to the Ford, Honda and BMW entries on the grid. Over the last two seasons, that performance began to dip noticeably in comparison, and a clear delta emerged between the A-Class and its rivals. This may not be conclusive, but does back up the view that the development potential of the A-Class had reached the end of its life, and so a move to a newer model is needed to remain competitive.

To me it seems obvious - give a BTCC team any base car to work with from scratch, and what they submit for homolgation in 2021 will be quicker than a car designed/homologated in 2012/2013. So if it was permitted to homologate an FK2 Civic, VW CC or MG-6 today, the resultant car would be quicker than the previous iterations seen in the BTCC.

[peebee2]

You could well be right, but there’s so many other variables nobody could ever prove it one way or the other.

[cameronpoe]

Originally Posted by peebee2

You could well be right, but there’s so many other variables nobody could ever prove it one way or the other.

I was a face in the crowd at Dynamics over last 3 years but this year will be peering over a different fence.
The FK2 v FK8 debate was one that did bubble along , the feeling was/is that an FK2 with the latest wheel/tyres plus the latest engine pack would have been a very potent vehicle .
The FK2 was seen by Matt as a very raceable car , the FK8 more of as Matt said a “Diva” .
The FK8 is fantastic in clear air as it has working aero , out the back at Thruxton it was clearly the fastest car however it’s is not so happy when it has to follow , a trait also seen in the 3 Series BMW, the FK2 was happy to follow and was handy in a wheel to wheel battle, I doubt it could chase down as fast as the FK8.
This sets up an interesting season for sure , Gordon is a renowned racer a less renowned qualifier, my guess is that he will need to qualify well , I genuinely hope he does.
I am off to the support paddock pages enjoy the season when it starts.!

[Spanner monkey]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

And finally, when you combine the performance across all dry qualifying sessions for each marque, the difference seems clear.

Whilst it is probably too early to tell for certain, there appears to be trends emerging.
The move to a newer model car (and application of prior experience in the homologation process) allows a step change in performance to be achieved. In the early years of the A-Class development, its performance remained broadly similar to the Ford, Honda and BMW entries on the grid. Over the last two seasons, that performance began to dip noticeably in comparison, and a clear delta emerged between the A-Class and its rivals. This may not be conclusive, but does back up the view that the development potential of the A-Class had reached the end of its life, and so a move to a newer model is needed to remain competitive.

To me it seems obvious - give a BTCC team any base car to work with from scratch, and what they submit for homolgation in 2021 will be quicker than a car designed/homologated in 2012/2013. So if it was permitted to homologate an FK2 Civic, VW CC or MG-6 today, the resultant car would be quicker than the previous iterations seen in the BTCC.

Also between the 2 models you have GPRM/RML hardware and the tire size became a little wider a few years ago. Also compounds have been improved by Dunlop/Goodyear.


The whole debate about which car handles the best comes down to the Engineer & the team bolting it all together and prep between races. All the same mechanical hardware is available to all the teams.

[bella]

Originally Posted by Spanner monkey

The whole debate about which car handles the best comes down to the Engineer & the team bolting it all together and prep between races. All the same mechanical hardware is available to all the teams.

tbf you also have to get the drivers head in the right place. a great engineer will have the measure of his driver, but also his drivers full confidence.

you can have the greatest driver in the world but if he doesn't trust his engineer, bolties and car, he's not going anywhere near the podium.

[Inside BTCC]

In the January edition of the eMagazine, we ran a feature on the FK2 - this was part of the quote from Andrew Jordan when talking about his title winning car:

"I think the only thing that came close was the BMW 3 Series and even then, the BMW was a car that could be very good on its day but could also be average, whereas the Honda was a car that was very good all the time.

"My view is that the FK2 was a better car than the FK8 is now, and if Dynamics went out and built a new one today, then I think it would win the title."

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Inside BTCC

"My view is that the FK2 was a better car than the FK8 is now, and if Dynamics went out and built a new one today, then I think it would win the title."

From what I have seen and heard - if he means built a new one with a new homologation, then absolutely yes (as we have seen from BMR).

If they were to build a new car using the existing as-homologated design, I am not as certain. Otherwise, we would expect NGTC-12-008 to be a quicker car than NGTC-12-004 - which was not the case. As it is - NGTC-12-005 (built 2012) was retained by TD whereas NGTC-12-007 (built in 2015) was sold.

[Moneyseeker]

I think where the FK2 was so good was that with the right driver, it was very good at maintaining a tight line on turn in to corners, without losing any speed or momentum. Idea for the cut backs, how many times have we seen the Honda's perfect the undercut and nip up the inside on corner exit.

The only other car I can think of that was a good as that, was the Avensis in Ingram's hands and of course Sutton can seemingly place a car anywhere - but that is pure talent.

[Moneyseeker]

Double post for some reason!

[porsche962fan]

so anymore livery reveals ?

[redshoes]

Originally Posted by porsche962fan

so anymore livery reveals ?

Media day on Thursday, so you should have them all by then

[Evantra]

Originally Posted by porsche962fan

so anymore livery reveals ?

I think I saw HARD's was tomorrow?

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Evantra

I think I saw HARD's was tomorrow?

With added Yazoo logos.....