[Driver] The GOAT - Grand Final - Senna vs Hamilton

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

Senna was beaten by his team mate for a championship though.

Yes beaten by the only other driver of the same level at the time.

Rosberg beat Hamilton but Nico was most definitely not of the same level as his teammate.

It's in the past but still a point but worth considering.

Also Hanilton has not had a truly comparable teamate since Button imho. Nico did bloody well to nick a title but I would never have put him in the truly ace bracket.

[Adam43]

One reason that these drivers don’t have comparable team mates is that they are incomparable.

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by chunterer

Yes beaten by the only other driver of the same level at the time.

Rosberg beat Hamilton but Nico was most definitely not of the same level as his teammate.

It's in the past but still a point but worth considering.

Also Hanilton has not had a truly comparable teamate since Button imho. Nico did bloody well to nick a title but I would never have put him in the truly ace bracket.

thats more then fair. during their time together, Button was more the match for LH and this period of LH's career stands as the biggest knock on his claim to the GOAT title.

while i no doubt put too much value in outright number of wins being the most important GOAT factor, i really liked Button's smooth and efficient driving style to the point where this team mate comparison does give me pause in calling LH the GOAT.

[S griffin]

In fairness by the time Button and Hamilton became team mates, Button had 10 years of experience in F1, whereas Lewis, despite his title had only 3 seasons and still rough edges to knock off. So that skews the picture slightly. Lewis is definitely the more naturally talented of the two

[Adam43]

Obviously the whole point is to find negative reasons why someone isn’t (and apply that selectively).

However, for me, Button’s performance when team mates with Hamilton just makes me realise how good Button was.

[Skam85]

Originally Posted by Anyopenroad

If we're going down this route then I'd point out that Hamilton wasn't "beaten" by Rosberg in 2016, he was beaten by a car that broke more often than Rosberg's and more often than any Mercedes in any of the years of their hybrid-era dominance.

It's amusing to think how Senna would have reacted to watching a German driver win in a German-made car with an Austrian team boss, having had the mechanics swapped around, while suffering a series of breakdowns competely out of the norm for the car/team.

Whatever the what-ifs, Prost beat Senna to the 1989 title in the same car; Rosberg beat Hamilton to the 2016 title in the same car.

Personally I don't hold this against either of them, especially when we're comparing them to Schumacher, who in his periods of dominance never had a team-mate able or allowed to compete with him. I'd rather not 'penalise' Senna or Hamilton for the fact that they drove in teams who hired title rivals to be their teammates and allowed them to race.

You're joking, right?

Senna had the chance of the title taken off him when the FIA disqualified him from the 89 Japanese GP. It was a direct intervention by the FIA who had full control of the situation. They literally decided who won the championship.

Hamilton fans will forever mention Malaysia 2016 until their dying breath. (while also conveniently forgetting 2014, or Massa in Hungary 2008 for that matter) The truth of the matter is, Rosberg drove within himself for the rest of the season knowing he only needed to finish second in the remaining races. Would he have finished ahead of Hamilton if he needed victories? We'll never know.

[Adam43]

He’s not joking, you’re both playing the what 1F game with some assumptions. Don’t be so dismissive.

We’ll literally never know whether Senna could have won another championship because of dropped scores if he kept the Suzuka win after being push started my the marshals.

[Anyopenroad]

Originally Posted by Adam43

He’s not joking, you’re both playing the what 1F game with some assumptions.

Exactly that. I wasn't the one who opened the door to What If Land .

The other thing about what ifs is that they change everything that happened after them. Had Senna kept the 1989 title, the 1990 season would not have been the same because the dynamic between drivers and the team would have been different.

Same with Hamilton and 2016. He became a better driver as a result of losing that title. Had Hamilton won in 2016, Rosberg would not have retired, so 2017 onwards would have been different.

But I just want to repeat what I wrote above:

"Personally I don't hold this [1989/2016] against either of them, especially when we're comparing them to Schumacher, who in his periods of dominance never had a team-mate able or allowed to compete with him. I'd rather not 'penalise' Senna or Hamilton for the fact that they drove in teams who hired title rivals to be their teammates and allowed them to race."

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by Adam43

He’s not joking, you’re both playing the what 1F game with some assumptions. Don’t be so dismissive.

We’ll literally never know whether Senna could have won another championship because of dropped scores if he kept the Suzuka win after being push started my the marshals.

It wasn't the push start that he was disqualified for though....

[Gerard C]

Seems it was hard for him to resist to a half way open door… What a warrior he was.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

It wasn't the push start that he was disqualified for though....

You’re right it was missing part of the track IIRC.

I just thought it would be fun to point out Senna was run pretty close in his championships by Prost in response to a post who dismissed others views by saying they are “fans”.

Those were intense years. Too intense for Prost who, sensibly, decided to go to another team for a more pleasant life. It was 1-1 in those years, which I think reflects the situation, but could have been 2-0 or 0-2.

[S griffin]

The great thing about that era was that we had the two best drivers in the best car or cars, and what's more they did with different driving styles that were both effective.

And yes it was because Senna rejoined via the escape road he was DQed. Push starts were allowed if the car was in a dangerous position, i.e. on the track. That's how Patrese was able to win in Monaco 82 despite stalling at the hairpin a couple of laps from the end

[smellysocks]

Senna

(Honorable mention to Gilles Villeneuve)

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by smellysocks

(Honorable mention to Gilles Villeneuve)

Look who knocked Gilles out!
https://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=155991

[smellysocks]

Originally Posted by Adam43

Look who knocked Gilles out!
https://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=155991

Good grief.

The damned offspring did it.

[S griffin]

Originally Posted by Adam43

Look who knocked Gilles out!
https://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=155991

I know, as much as a respect Jacques, I would say his father was much more naturally talented and would have achieved more had he not been killed. As well as the fact he hardly ever had a car that could win on it's own