Would you have preferred gravel traps in China?

[craigd]

Just out of interest I was wondering what peoples' views were on this. It was very difficult conditions in China with many drivers making mistakes. However, with the ubiquitious tarmac runoffs of today, many drivers lived another day. On the one hand it's good that such drivers can stay in 'the game' as Martin Brundle pointed out, but also would it have been even more exciting if the risk of dropping out of the race had been that much greater - Monaco-esque?

For example, if gravel traps had been present, then almost certainly we'd have lost Button, Webber, Hamilton, Alonso, Barrichello etc. In fact I can only recall Vettel and Kovalainen not having offs! We'd really have seen some hardcore heroes drives then!

I don't mind tarmac runoff areas, and having just 3 cars say finish a race wouldn't be much fun, but sometimes it's a shame there isn't quite the high risk involved in making a mistake as there once was. Twas still a good race anyway!

[Sodemo]

Its a balancing act. There should undoubtedly be a penalty for running off track, but what that is is open to question. I think Fuji is the worst for this, in the 2007 race it was actually a benefit to run off the track, that surely isn't "right". Where Fuji differs from other circuits is the very thin strips of grass that mark out the track. This really needs to be say 4-5 metres or so in width, not the current 1-2 as it is currently at Fuji.

[Ralf's Girl]

I agree. In China the drivers who went off the track benefited from not ending up in the gravel trap, but were clearly losing out because they would almost always get overtaken. At Fuji it appeared to make them go faster, which is utterly bizarre. In a wet race when so many drivers were spinning off, though, it would have been a shame to miss out on all the racing because there was nobody left on the track...

[Burnsie]

As Mark Webber said last year, it's like driving around traffic cones at Heathrow

I'm undecided about your question though... we probably would have seen much more of the Safety Car if there had been gravel traps in China, and the large run-offs do give the drivers 'get out of jail free' cards which keeps them in the running; but it also creates a much larger margin for error for the "world's greatest drivers".

The jury is still out...

[stedevil]

I agree with Sodemo. As for gravel traps in general, there was days in the past when those didnt exist either. And whatever the consequence, drivers will adapt to a sound risk/gain analysis. If going of track means you for sure drop out of the race, drivers will be less likely to try to overtake. That's not really what we want either.

[Marbot]

It's probably right to assume that if there had been gravel traps instead of run-off area then the better wet-weather drivers would probably never have left the track and lap times would increase slightly.If you know there is no penalty for leaving the track you'll go faster.

However,I hope that we never get into the situation where they start handing out 10 second penalties every time someone leaves the track.

[the.cosmic.pope]

I quite like it when you have tarmac run off, and then a gravel trap slightly further back. Makes bigger mistakes punishable, whilst allowing a tolerance for racing. But I also think there should be a grass strip a few feet wide on the edge of the track to keep drivers in check. Too many use tarmac run off too there advantage.

[duke_toaster]

There obviously needs to be some form of penalty, however tarmac runoff has the advantage that cars don't get beached which is good as requires less use of the safety car. However, Fuji needs to be modified so that there is a lot more astroturf before the tarmac runoff - it should slow the cars down, not spin them round or anything. Paul Ricard style super paint could be an interesting idea. On the inside of corners polystyrene bollards like the corner distance markers could be an idea, but cutting the inside of corners isn't that common.

[Super Hans]

Drivers push the envelope at circuits like Shangai and Fuji because they know they can get away with it if they spin.

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by craigd

In fact I can only recall Vettel and Kovalainen not having offs!

But then who wants to see a race with only 2 cars in it? As RG pointed out, at least when the drivers went off they were penalised by being overtaken. I personally much prefer the tracks as they are.

[Knowlesy]

They should have gravel traps everywhere, and higher kerbs too. Reward precision driving.

You wouldn't suddenly see diabolical scenes of 17 cars out of the race, the drivers would cut back a bit.

[craigd]

Originally Posted by Mr V

But then who wants to see a race with only 2 cars in it? As RG pointed out, at least when the drivers went off they were penalised by being overtaken. I personally much prefer the tracks as they are.

Well yeah exactly. I think it was generally fine at China since obviously a driver is penalised by going off road, unlike it seems Fiji as others have mentioned. Of course if there were gravel traps, drivers would be more cautious and then possibly the true rain meisters who take more risks would stand out more. But overall, if I had to chose one or the other i'd see what China is like now is ok, as it's more fun watching cars recover from mistakes than watching the driver walk back to the pits (and of course Lewis would still protest there's at least one gravel trap too many!) Just was interested in others views, that's all.

[Burnsie]

Originally Posted by duke_toaster

Paul Ricard style super paint could be an interesting idea.

Hmm... not sure if I could get used to seeing increasing levels of magic paint at different circuits, although you're right in saying that it's an interesting idea.

[RotorFan]

I thought the paint was just a marking, its the tarmac itself that changes in abrasiveness the further out you get...

[St00ge]

It is a mix of tarmac and tungsten blue being not as course as the red which will destroy a set of tyres if you go spinning over it..

[Bleu]

I don't think the amount of gravel traps and cars ending there would increase safety cars. There wasn't one for Sutil for example. I can't actually recall safety car in F1 when single car was on gravel trap except one occasion when car was there upside down, and safety car was undestandable as medical car (first lap) had to stop and doctors make sure that driver was OK.

Who is first one to know what incident I'm talking about?

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by Bleu

Who is first one to know what incident I'm talking about?

Diniz - Nurburgring - 1999?

[Racer 35]

I must admit that I prefer tarmac run-off to gravel traps. As a driver, it gives you the opportunity to have a go (whether that be going faster, trying a different line, overtaking...whatever), without being beached, out of the race, and with a damaged car as a punishment. The beached car will certainly bring out yellow flags for a while whilst the divers become accustomed to the situation, or if the car is in a dangerous position, it will have to be recovered under yellows, with marshals at potential risk. Either way, that section of the track is neutralised as far as racing goes whilst the situation is sorted. Tarmac run-offs mean no damaged cars, no yellow flags, no marshals at risk, and no neutralised racing.

The F1 guys will always take whatever risks they calculate they can get away with. By all means bring gravel traps back, and they'll adapt to a less agressive style, and keep the cars on the track more. But, surely we want to see more exciting racing don't we?

However, I do agree thatgoing off the track should be a penalty of some sort, and certainly not a Fuji-style reward. As I recall, the new run-off at Pouhon at Spa also seemed to be as fast, if not faster than staying on track. Situations like these do, I feel, need some resolution.

[Sodemo]

Yes, the run-off at Pouhon is an utter travesty.

[Burnsie]

Originally Posted by St00ge

It is a mix of tarmac and tungsten blue being not as course as the red which will destroy a set of tyres if you go spinning over it..

Is that not dangerous? What if you spin over the red areas but manage to recover, would this not create the risk of a puncture or blow-out once the car is up to speed again?

[Bleu]

Originally Posted by Mr V

Diniz - Nurburgring - 1999?

Actually no. I was referring to Albers in Imola 2006.

[Al Weyman]

No never, much better to have runoffs as anyone how builds and runs their own cars would testify.