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Old 9 May 2011, 01:35 (Ref:2877157)   #101
Empty Box
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I wouldn't be so certain about that one. It's not like movable wings were a brand new idea, and it isn't even something that is a new idea to F1. It's been allowed to spice things up.

What if the teams were allowed to run fans to keep the car sucked to the ground no matter what, to increase passing now that aerodynamic flow from the car infront creates no issue. Certainly not a new idea, infact, Bernie might know a thing or two about that.

If the teams were allowed, I think we would all agree we'd see wings changing angles all over the place over the course of a lap. Heck, remember the issue with the gap a couple of years ago now between rear wing elements?

What if we had nitrous systems on the cars because the rules didn't say you couldn't - that would fall under the same category as what KERS is; IMHO a similarly mickey mouse solution as DRS. Of course, finding loopholes is the spirit of motorsports - But if it's controlled, it's "artificial". I'm not so sure I agree with that thinking.

All in the way you look at it. You either want racing from the series, or you want the technowizbang stuff. Right now, you more or less get neither in all honesty. If they won't let the "fun" stuff back in, might as well make some decent racing out of it IMHO.

And sprinklers are a great idea. Or, they could just chop the wings off and downgrade the brakes a few hundred notches and call it the same.... But...
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Old 9 May 2011, 02:16 (Ref:2877164)   #102
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I wouldn't be so certain about that one. It's not like movable wings were a brand new idea, and it isn't even something that is a new idea to F1. It's been allowed to spice things up.

What if the teams were allowed to run fans to keep the car sucked to the ground no matter what, to increase passing now that aerodynamic flow from the car infront creates no issue. Certainly not a new idea, infact, Bernie might know a thing or two about that.

If the teams were allowed, I think we would all agree we'd see wings changing angles all over the place over the course of a lap. Heck, remember the issue with the gap a couple of years ago now between rear wing elements?

What if we had nitrous systems on the cars because the rules didn't say you couldn't - that would fall under the same category as what KERS is; IMHO a similarly mickey mouse solution as DRS. Of course, finding loopholes is the spirit of motorsports - But if it's controlled, it's "artificial". I'm not so sure I agree with that thinking.

All in the way you look at it. You either want racing from the series, or you want the technowizbang stuff. Right now, you more or less get neither in all honesty. If they won't let the "fun" stuff back in, might as well make some decent racing out of it IMHO.

And sprinklers are a great idea. Or, they could just chop the wings off and downgrade the brakes a few hundred notches and call it the same.... But...
Moveable wings certainly aren't a new idea. It was first used by the Chapparal 2E that had a movable rear wing, which was operated by a pedal and the Chapparal 2J had two big fans at the back and skirts that sealed the underside of the car producing downforce, this was copied by Brabham and incorporated into the BT46B at the Swedish GP in 1978, where it won its first and only GP. Both the Chapparal and Brabham were banned. Apart from it being argued that the fans were moving aerodynamic devices the other reason was stones and debris were thrown out at the cars following behind. In the wet it would have been like following a huge hose-pipe.

The issue I have with DRS is it has been brought in to deliberately spice things up, mainly because the current design regulations in F1 are now so rigid and there is not much room for innovation because there is a budget cap and if a new idea like a double diffuser or F-duct comes along, it subsequently gets banned and let's not kid ourselves, DRS is a moveable aerodynamic device; in which case bring back the fan car.
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Old 9 May 2011, 04:31 (Ref:2877189)   #103
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The issue I have with DRS is it has been brought in to deliberately spice things up, mainly because the current design regulations in F1 are now so rigid and there is not much room for innovation because there is a budget cap and if a new idea like a double diffuser or F-duct comes along, it subsequently gets banned and let's not kid ourselves, DRS is a moveable aerodynamic device; in which case bring back the fan car.
Surely the biggest difference between DRS and all these other technical devices is that the rules governing DRS are different for the car behind and the car in front. That is the thing that has never been done before.
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Old 9 May 2011, 06:38 (Ref:2877207)   #104
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... downgrade the brakes a few hundred notches and call it the same.... But...
Logic dictates that a more efficient brake system makes the margins for applying the brake at the correct time smaller, with less efficient brakes the margin would be bigger and it would infact be easier to brake at the exact correct time. Less efficient brakes would make overtaking in braking zones more difficult, not easier
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Old 9 May 2011, 06:51 (Ref:2877215)   #105
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Logic dictates that a more efficient brake system makes the margins for applying the brake at the correct time smaller, with less efficient brakes the margin would be bigger and it would infact be easier to brake at the exact correct time. Less efficient brakes would make overtaking in braking zones more difficult, not easier
..... which would show if the driver is ace. But then I don't think we'd see much overtakers as they sooner or later pit anyway and try to get a position there then.

To the new tracks, apart from them being boring and more looking like giant parking lots, the governing body still runs the big mistake of not penalizing drivers strictly who make use of these run offs. At the new Eunuchenheim, for instance, painting a red stripe into run off of t1 and telling drivers that they are allowed to use the run off as racing line up to there. Also drivers are entitled to use the whole run off there in starting lap without being penalized, similar to the regulation with La Source at Spa-Francorchamps. I for one don't want to see which racing driver makes the most use of off track lines. This leads me to believe that gravel traps, the safety aspect aside, are the way more teaching instruments than any parking lot run off can ever provide.

Last edited by Andy77; 9 May 2011 at 07:00.
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Old 9 May 2011, 08:10 (Ref:2877259)   #106
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luke g28 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridluke g28 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
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The issue I have with DRS is it has been brought in to deliberately spice things up, mainly because the current design regulations in F1 are now so rigid and there is not much room for innovation because there is a budget cap and if a new idea like a double diffuser or F-duct comes along, it subsequently gets banned and let's not kid ourselves, DRS is a moveable aerodynamic device; in which case bring back the fan car.
I wouldnt say DRS is all that different to the F Duct we had last season. It does the same thing in a very similar way it just a bit more regulated (theres a suprise)

However I think the first line of the above is the most important. Its been bought in as a bit of a band aid to counter the rigidity of the regulations. I feel that a more beneficial move would be to treat the source of the problem and de regulate.
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Old 9 May 2011, 08:57 (Ref:2877275)   #107
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I'm so tired of this argument...

We could 'get to the problem', which would also create a load of other problems. Yes, rid of the aero, and then what? Slow lap times - really slow lap times. Will be slower than GP2. So we take the aero off GP2? That'll be hard given that they've just received their new generation of chassis. It'd mean GP3 would have to change, too, along with most of the other single seater catagories.

It's extremely difficult to 'undo' technology without going backwards. DRS is a means of keeping a happy medium, and whichever way you look at it, you have to accept that is has done what it's been asked to do.

Is it perfect? No. How will they perfect it? In time.

I actually think Monaco will be a good outing for once, and I also have some confidence in Barcelona this year, too. That in itself is quite an achievement!

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Old 9 May 2011, 10:18 (Ref:2877323)   #108
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I'm so tired of this argument...
Nobody is forcing you to participate in this argument.

Also, stop looking at it with black and white kind of reasoning.

Getting rid of aero completely is silly, but reducing the wake while keeping more or less the same downforce levels is not.
Something like ground effect coupled with a minimalistic wing configuration would help in this respect. (something I've mentioned several times, but always ignored)

It would certainly help cars actually follow eachother closely during cornering, instead of just whooshing past on the straight thanks to a lolbutton.
If I want to watch cheap racing I'd go watch Nascar.
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Old 9 May 2011, 10:23 (Ref:2877326)   #109
ECW Dan Selby
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You're right buddy, no one's forcing me to participate as you put it, but it's also a debate that comes up alot of the time in many different topics - that cannot be argued with.

It's not just this site, either - it's a widespread argument and we've seen many of the different sides to the story discussed in countless ways. It does get a little tiresome.

I think you're right to a certain degree: A happy medium would be a good idea.

In fairness, anyone's opinion on something they feel strongly about is going to be fairly 'black and white' as you put it, especially given that we've all participated in this argument umpteen times.

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Old 9 May 2011, 10:34 (Ref:2877329)   #110
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This quote from James Allen hits the nail on the head.

"What is really exciting for me about this season is that F1 has done something that it has always found it hard to do and that is unlearn something that it’s learned (Pirelli tyres).

In aerodynamics, electronics and all areas of F1 car performance the teams have learned so much in recent years and when framing the rules they never seem to be able to go back to something which is better for racing, rather than engineering."

So maybe a bit more unlearing in other areas would reduce the need for 'Gizmos' ?
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Old 9 May 2011, 10:36 (Ref:2877331)   #111
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Yeh thats almost a crossover of what myself and ASCII were saying

It's so hard to unlearn as it were, and I highly commend Pirelli for opting to do so.

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Old 9 May 2011, 10:45 (Ref:2877337)   #112
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It's so hard to unlearn as it were, and I highly commend Pirelli for opting to do so.
Ironically, it's actually much more of a difficult technical task to do what Pirelli are doing rather than what they would have been doing had they just taken up where Bridgestone left off.

Sometimes it's doing the difficult things that doesn't make you look so good.
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Old 9 May 2011, 12:37 (Ref:2877415)   #113
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Many leading F1 people seemed to think that the tyres had more to do with overtaking than the DRS. I have to agree.

As an example:

Renault technical director James Allison believed that the high level of overtaking in Turkey owed more to the varying tyre wear on different cars than the DRS

"I think that what you were seeing was a track where, because the tyre degradation was high and because different people chose three stops and some four stops – and even the four stops were stopping at different phases of that, it built up big differentials of performance.

"If you looked at people who were on the same strategy as one another, behind one another, they could not just breeze by on different laps. There were lots of laps where they were pinned behind other people for many laps, so I think the FIA got it again pretty spot on."

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/91298
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Old 9 May 2011, 13:50 (Ref:2877468)   #114
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Well the GP of Turkey was pretty good, everyone was racing well unless they tried to move schumacher..enough of the banging, at least these carswerent falling apart aa we have seen in other races.
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Old 9 May 2011, 14:14 (Ref:2877488)   #115
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Nobody is forcing you to participate in this argument.

Also, stop looking at it with black and white kind of reasoning.

Getting rid of aero completely is silly, but reducing the wake while keeping more or less the same downforce levels is not.
Something like ground effect coupled with a minimalistic wing configuration would help in this respect. (something I've mentioned several times, but always ignored)

It would certainly help cars actually follow eachother closely during cornering, instead of just whooshing past on the straight thanks to a lolbutton.
If I want to watch cheap racing I'd go watch Nascar.
When Swift were putting in their bid for the new IndyCar chassis, they came up with the 'Mushroom Buster', which was designed to deal with the wake left by car and have been using it successfully in Formula Nippon.

http://www.popoffvalve.com/2010/2/8/...ring-spices-up
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Old 9 May 2011, 16:46 (Ref:2877572)   #116
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I'm so tired of this argument...

We could 'get to the problem', which would also create a load of other problems. Yes, rid of the aero, and then what? Slow lap times - really slow lap times. Will be slower than GP2. So we take the aero off GP2? That'll be hard given that they've just received their new generation of chassis. It'd mean GP3 would have to change, too, along with most of the other single seater catagories.
Grip is grip. There are other ways than big wings and appendages all over the car to make downforce. It isn't even so much the wings, but the fact that they produce so much downforce that essentially without them the car behind is toast. The cars are reliant on airflow over the top for downforce. Hint hint.

I've said this for a while, but the easiest solution is to lock the wing angles, as in a wing that you'd see in Montreal currently would be your Monaco wings - your mega downforce package. Lower the downforce produced by the wings, make the tires provide more grip.
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Old 9 May 2011, 17:05 (Ref:2877578)   #117
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Grip is grip. There are other ways than big wings and appendages all over the car to make downforce. It isn't even so much the wings, but the fact that they produce so much downforce that essentially without them the car behind is toast. The cars are reliant on airflow over the top for downforce. Hint hint.

I've said this for a while, but the easiest solution is to lock the wing angles, as in a wing that you'd see in Montreal currently would be your Monaco wings - your mega downforce package. Lower the downforce produced by the wings, make the tires provide more grip.
Before ground effect. aerodynamcs were concerned with air flowing over the car. As a result the car could punch a hole in the air, allowing the car behind to slipstream or draft.

Since the days of ground effect airflow under the car is still equally important and this is what primarily causes the wake, as the air comes up from the diffuser right into the path of the following car. This in turn disrupts the airflow over the following car as it gets closer to the car in front; basically the opposite of slipstreaming or drafting.
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