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Old 21 Jun 2008, 23:33 (Ref:2234409)   #1
Casper
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Will Things Change or Need to Change

Given the impending changes to the way we use energy for transport and specifically cars, F1 has seen the future (or have they just been trendy?) and instigated changes to their competition to at least APPEAR to be concerned with the energy crisis, some say it is all b**l s**t others are not so sure. So my question is this, is the premier motrosport category in this country going to change in a similar manner, they after all are looking at Ethanol already, or can they stay doing the same thing. Will change be forced on them, unwillingly or do they plan the change so managing it the way they, the movers and shakers, want it to go. Will the public's reaction to motorsport force a change, unlikely at this point but further down the track? Food for thought me thinks.
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Old 21 Jun 2008, 23:56 (Ref:2234416)   #2
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what change are you after Casper. surely the move to a so called renewable energy is enough.
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Old 22 Jun 2008, 00:02 (Ref:2234419)   #3
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Short term..... They might pay it some lip service. Their fan base might get confused with the Carbon Footprint concept and think it's a new pizza based take away food.

Long term.... Everything has a shelf life..Even V8 sedan racing. They seem to be doing quite well at the moment and their MO suggests they'll borrow other peoples ideas and run with them with a new "Supercar" spin.

Ethanol might be a simple way to go. No drastic changes needed. But we might have to add about 95% unleaded to the mix so we can see the flames when they catch fire.
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Old 22 Jun 2008, 00:09 (Ref:2234421)   #4
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Not at all, MPA.

Surely a simple solution is to add a dye that burns with an orange flame so you still see the big flames from the exhaust.

We did it in our first year at high school so it can't be too hard
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Old 22 Jun 2008, 01:28 (Ref:2234439)   #5
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Yup, JDI it would be easy enough if a 12 year old can do it.

The exhaust flame does look good on TV. But I'm thinking more along the lines of when they burst into flames. Like the time the Pack Leader car caught fire and the driver jumped out without hitting the kill switch.....If that really happened..
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Old 22 Jun 2008, 02:02 (Ref:2234443)   #6
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You guys seem to be under the impression thatthe substitution of Ethanol is good for the environment?

Hydrogen is the way to go, however it will be a while before it is going to be developed enough for general use.

In the meantime, running all ancillary vehicles and equipment on LPG gets my vote. Transporters could be running on Bio-Diesel (D' Alberto already doing this?)
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Old 22 Jun 2008, 02:58 (Ref:2234453)   #7
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A few years back it was touted that the cars would run on a new blend of Caltex Vortex? or was it Optimax?, one that had a significant ethanol content. Then all of a sudden it didn't exist anymore.
I think now Shell's blend is called V-Power Racing (10% ethanol). Does anyone know of the cars actually run on this now? I think a change to E85 would probaby be technically the easiest, but your right, the envirionmental benefit is negligable at best.
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Old 22 Jun 2008, 03:12 (Ref:2234457)   #8
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I thought VESA planted trees each year to replace the ozone depletion of each cars' running? Sounds like an approach to 'green' or at least a step in the right direction.

Would Toyota really run a Prius V8Supercar?
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Old 22 Jun 2008, 05:47 (Ref:2234465)   #9
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Well, boffins are saying by the time 2020, most cars will be powered by hydrogen.
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Old 22 Jun 2008, 06:04 (Ref:2234467)   #10
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If you have ever watched "Who Killed The Electric Car" you would have seen some electric vehicles which are capable of producing incredible speeds and torque. The silence would be the biggest letdown. Maybe this is where V8 fans and the ricer set can get together, and develop a car audio system which will replicate the ideal racing engine noise... whatever that may be considered to be by whoever is putting it in. The electric cars can be recharged using green electricity, from renewable sources, meaning that the Bathurst 1000 could be run with a smaller real carbon footprint than some business lunches. The fake engine noise would be safer as well when electric cars become more widespread on the road - people would be a lot less likely to get run over by a car that they couldn't hear was coming.

Watching the start of one of the V8 races at Sandown, with the shot looking back to the start from turn 1, and the massive cloud of exhaust fumes completely blocked out the view of the chase cars - you could only just dimly see their headlights. The same shot at the start of the Formula Ford race just prior to that, had the chase cars clearly visible. I had never noticed the extent of these fumes before, and frankly it terrified me.

The advantage that electricity has over hydrogen is that the distribution infrastructure is already in place. I have more powerpoints in my house than there are hydrogen filling stations in Australia. It is estimated that the cost to set up the required infrastructure to allow hydrogen to be used as an effective fuel source for road traffic is somewhere in the vicinity of tens (or was it hundreds?) of billions of dollars, and that is just for Australia. Add to this the infancy of the technology, and it is not currently a viable alternative. It certainly is one that should be developed, but it will be a long time before it becomes widespread.

The problem with ethanol is that this planet already has a significant number of people starving. I am sure there is enough food available for them all - it is just not all in the right place. If we start converting crops into fuel instead of food, it makes it that much harder to balance up the global food supply. Keep the crops for food, and power our racing with renewable electricity.
The only losers in this are the oil companies - and then only if they are not smart enough to get into the renewable electricity industry.

Last edited by Rombles1; 22 Jun 2008 at 06:13.
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Old 22 Jun 2008, 07:45 (Ref:2234490)   #11
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peckstar has a lot of promise if they can keep it on the circuit!
and whats the problem with renewable electricity rombles, apart from the fact that there is no such thing on a commercial scale.
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Old 22 Jun 2008, 07:50 (Ref:2234491)   #12
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The F1 move is spin doctoring at it's best. The V8's move to 85% ethanol is up there as well. Whilst 85% ethanol may be fine in an engine that gets pulled down many times a year, I wouldn't be putting it in my road car unless it was the only thing available.

Motor racing will always be polluting- no doubt about it. We need to seriously look at ways to reduce the off-track pollution.

The LPG transporter is a good idea -LPG injected diesels show real promise for increased economy and efficiency. Experiments on locomotives are looking promising, and many 4wd's already use this system.
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Old 22 Jun 2008, 08:00 (Ref:2234494)   #13
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Would Toyota really run a Prius V8Supercar?
With all the stop/start pace cars at Bathurst it may go quite well.
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Old 22 Jun 2008, 08:36 (Ref:2234514)   #14
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what change are you after Casper. surely the move to a so called renewable energy is enough.

I did not say I was after any change did I? Please tell me where I was that specific.

Where in relation to V8 super cars has renewable energy been mentioned?
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Old 22 Jun 2008, 11:46 (Ref:2234616)   #15
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Given the impending changes to the way we use energy for transport and specifically cars, F1 has seen the future (or have they just been trendy?) and instigated changes to their competition to at least APPEAR to be concerned with the energy crisis, some say it is all b**l s**t others are not so sure. So my question is this, is the premier motrosport category in this country going to change in a similar manner, they after all are looking at Ethanol already, or can they stay doing the same thing. Will change be forced on them, unwillingly or do they plan the change so managing it the way they, the movers and shakers, want it to go. Will the public's reaction to motorsport force a change, unlikely at this point but further down the track? Food for thought me thinks.
Interesting food for thought but I doubt if a majority of V8SC fans are willing or knowledgable enough to embrace change until the departure of the manufacturers and the sponsors forces it upon them
Some of the comments on things like KERS and bio fuels indicated more resistance to change than willingness to really find out how things really work.
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Old 22 Jun 2008, 13:40 (Ref:2234715)   #16
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and whats the problem with renewable electricity rombles, apart from the fact that there is no such thing on a commercial scale.
At the moment there is no major commercial-scale, baseload generating form of renewable electricity, in use in Australia. Yet a significant proportion of our electricity does already come from these sources. Currently 15% of South Australia's electricity comes from wind power, and that amount is growing rapidly. The more it grows, the cheaper it gets. If building one wind tower costs $X, building two towers will not cost two times $X, as a large part of the development cost can be spread across a larger number of towers.

If Enviro-mission can finally pull their finger out and build their Solar Tower facility at Buronga, near Mildura, that will be a massive boost to the availability of green, renewable electricity. The Solar Tower differs from conventional photo-voltaic solar electricy production in that it produces power 24/7, and is not as dependent upon consistant sunlight for its output. It is more efficient when it IS hot though - and that just happens to be when demand is highest. It has been proven to work, with a Spanish pilot plant generating power consistently for the seven years that it was operated back in the 1980's.

There are other forms being developed as well. Geothermal, or Hot Rock generation is being tested, and I saw something on the news in the last few months about a test facility starting up at Innamincka in SA's far north. All standard Nuclear fission does is generate heat to boil water to create steam to turn turbines to generate electricity. Geothermal power uses the hot rocks several km below the earths surface to create this steam, with the same result, without the radioactive waste. Fusion power is being developed as well - although I suspect we will have readily available hydrogen in all service stations before this is commercially ready - but watch out when it IS available - the power this will create will blow your mind!

The technology to generate a significant amount of renewable electricity exists today. With the right encouragement from governments - and a carbon trading scheme will be an important first step in this - we will see the technologies move from something for sceptics to scoff at, to being a major commercially viable part of our lives. If we were to look at coal for its true total cost - ie not just the dollars it costs to dig it up and burn it, but also the cost to the planet of the effects of that process - then it will cease to be seen as the cheap energy source that it is today. It will be easier to re-employ those who currently dig the coal up than it will be to find a new planet for us all to live on. I believe it is that serious. If I'm wrong, what will we really have lost? An awful lot of pollution out of the environment, and a few people might get different jobs. Is it worth taking the risk?
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Old 22 Jun 2008, 22:18 (Ref:2235139)   #17
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all hypothetical answers really werent they. you really only stated one form of renewable energy there that works and it is over 500 km from the nearest capital city. imagine the costs of transmission

Wind only works when there is baseload to back it up, ie most of the time. Hot rocks please. go out and pour somewater on a hot rock to make steam and tell me what happens. it cools. no more hot rocks.


what have we lost . billions of dollars what have we lost. straight up in victoria. the cost of electricity will double. thats an extra billion dollars every family will pay, plus the inflationary factor on business that will push prices up even more. all for a theory that seems to be lacking
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Old 22 Jun 2008, 22:38 (Ref:2235148)   #18
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Come to Taupo, peckstar. You will see hot rocks first-hand. You will be quite amazed at what geothermal power can do, and if you do it in January, you can take in the A1 GP round while you are here, since you have lost yours.
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Old 22 Jun 2008, 22:45 (Ref:2235155)   #19
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Come to Taupo, peckstar. You will see hot rocks first-hand. You will be quite amazed at what geothermal power can do, and if you do it in January, you can take in the A1 GP round while you are here, since you have lost yours.
We may have lost an A1GP team too if the noise is right

Back on the relevance to V8SC... based on the 'green' ethos the probability of running an event at night takes a serious bath if the circuit in question needs to be flood lit.

Motorsport is fundamentally wasteful, of resources, or personnel, of all kinds of things, that are firstly duplicated and replicated across teams across the country, but also in the consumption of parts, panels, tyres, fuel, oil etc etc..

Oooerrr should we ban it? No way! But shinying it up for the 'GreenMachine' wouldnt be such a bad thing....
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Old 22 Jun 2008, 22:53 (Ref:2235160)   #20
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Oh dear, did Alan fail at his attempt to run 19 pay drivers in TeamOzA1?

I think that Supercars running on bio-fuel is a good thing, as long as they don't go hybrid like the Prius lot.

Maybe the next official fuel supplier to V8 Supercars could be Queensland Sugar??
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Old 23 Jun 2008, 01:15 (Ref:2235311)   #21
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Watching the start of one of the V8 races at Sandown, with the shot looking back to the start from turn 1, and the massive cloud of exhaust fumes completely blocked out the view of the chase cars - you could only just dimly see their headlights. The same shot at the start of the Formula Ford race just prior to that, had the chase cars clearly visible. I had never noticed the extent of these fumes before, and frankly it terrified me.
At Hamilton there was a big black patch on the wall at one corner exit (I'm not familiar enough with the circuit to remember which one). I think that they should change the regs to eliminate fuel mixtures that produce these fumes (it is just from running rich for better power), not only does it look pretty bad but it can't be good for the drivers/marshalls/spectators, particularly at street tracks where less dispersal occurs. I think they should have to run catalytic converters, unless they can achieve the same emissions through tuning.

As for "carbon footprint", I expect the V8SC championship would probably be better than the AFL for example, with all their plane travel.
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Old 23 Jun 2008, 12:11 (Ref:2235603)   #22
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all hypothetical answers really werent they. you really only stated one form of renewable energy there that works and it is over 500 km from the nearest capital city. imagine the costs of transmission

Wind only works when there is baseload to back it up, ie most of the time. Hot rocks please. go out and pour somewater on a hot rock to make steam and tell me what happens. it cools. no more hot rocks.


what have we lost . billions of dollars what have we lost. straight up in victoria. the cost of electricity will double. thats an extra billion dollars every family will pay, plus the inflationary factor on business that will push prices up even more. all for a theory that seems to be lacking
So how long are coal and oil sustainable?
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Old 23 Jun 2008, 22:45 (Ref:2236195)   #23
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"Global warming, "climate change", "carbon footprint" pfft... I drive a fuel-guzzling emissions-belching 25 year old rotary.

Screw the environment
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Old 24 Jun 2008, 00:13 (Ref:2236228)   #24
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"Global warming, "climate change", "carbon footprint" pfft... I drive a fuel-guzzling emissions-belching 25 year old rotary.

Screw the environment
Exactly what you are doing mate.
Problem for V8SC is there are a lot of people who, rightly or wrongly, are worried about the world they are leaving for their grandkids. They are probably in the majority now, and their numbers are boosted every time there is another major weather event.
The bent eights have a shortening shelf life. Motorsport needs o be finding and developing the replacement series.
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Old 24 Jun 2008, 02:26 (Ref:2236276)   #25
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What is the solution though? Any kind of motorsport uses the earth's resources, whether it is Formula Vee or Formula One...

Shall we ban motorsport because it isnt green? Shall we ban planes flying for the same reason?

There does need to be a new generation thought about, but.. when the #1 selling car most months is a Corolla... are we perhaps contemplating a "Back to the Future" approach with SuperTouring/S2000 as the appropriate answer?
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