Honda Withdrawl from F1

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Honda missed a big opportunity in the 00s, good job they developed a great car for Brawn to take over. They probably aren’t interested in F1 anymore and I do worry for Red Bull’s future without them

Is there any reason to worry for Red Bull’s future without them? Honda's Formula 1 engines from the 2022 season onwards, come under the auspices of a new company called Red Bull Powertrains. From 2022-2024 there is an engine development freeze, with the new F1 engine regs come in, in 2025.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Red Bull had a white livery for the 2008 Brazilian GP.

[chillibowl]

wow what an ugly car that was and that includes that livery!

i guess if a longer wider car was the trade off in order to get rid of all those aero bits and wings on top of the car then i guess im ok with it.

anyways, this Honda one off totally looks great. shame they cant race it in Japan but really nice tribute!

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Red Bull had a white livery for the 2008 Brazilian GP.

That really is hideous and would still look ghastly in any livery!

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Is there any reason to worry for Red Bull’s future without them? Honda's Formula 1 engines from the 2022 season onwards, come under the auspices of a new company called Red Bull Powertrains. From 2022-2024 there is an engine development freeze, with the new F1 engine regs come in, in 2025.

I "think" RBR will be fine through the end of the life of the current engine specification. The key is that the transition from 2022 to 2023 going smoothly from Honda to Red Bull Powertrains is key. But I expect they will make it work as they are just trying to reproduce the current engine and not really focus on development.

When Honda announced their exit, the development freeze didn't exist. Once the existing power unit suppliers agreed to the freeze, that also made the RB plan feasible (they wouldn't have been able to take over the Honda program AND continue power unit development. Or at least it would have been hard to do that successfully)

One thing I noticed recently is that the "new" spec had previously been listed as "2025" but I started to see it being referenced as "2026". I think recently (not sure when) the existing (current) spec has been extended into 2025 with the new spec coming in 2026.

Richard

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

I "think" RBR will be fine through the end of the life of the current engine specification. The key is that the transition from 2022 to 2023 going smoothly from Honda to Red Bull Powertrains is key. But I expect they will make it work as they are just trying to reproduce the current engine and not really focus on development.

When Honda announced their exit, the development freeze didn't exist. Once the existing power unit suppliers agreed to the freeze, that also made the RB plan feasible (they wouldn't have been able to take over the Honda program AND continue power unit development. Or at least it would have been hard to do that successfully)

One thing I noticed recently is that the "new" spec had previously been listed as "2025" but I started to see it being referenced as "2026". I think recently (not sure when) the existing (current) spec has been extended into 2025 with the new spec coming in 2026.

Richard

Unless there's some massive oversight, I don't see why the transition from 2022 to 2023 shouldn't go smoothly. Red Bull Powertrains will just inherit the engines and IP from Honda.

I haven't come across anything that suggests the current spec will be extended to 2025.

[chillibowl]

maybe just a phrasing thing...as in current spec goes to 2025 with new spec for 2026....but with covid and everything maybe it was pushed ahead a year?

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/o...plans/6681770/

with rumours of Audi and Porsche thinking about joining up etc so i look forward to them later denying it and then rubbishing F1 as being not relevant.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

maybe just a phrasing thing...as in current spec goes to 2025 with new spec for 2026....but with covid and everything maybe it was pushed ahead a year?

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/o...plans/6681770/

with rumours of Audi and Porsche thinking about joining up etc so i look forward to them later denying it and then rubbishing F1 as being not relevant.

That's the first I've seen of any mention of 2026.

[steve nielsen]

[chillibowl]

not to be outdone, LH has decided to use the traditional RB colours for himself the weekend. the mind games.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

not to be outdone, LH has decided to use the traditional RB colours for himself the weekend. the mind games.

Does this mean that Ferrari will be Silver this weekend, Aston Martin in Red and Williams in Green?

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Unless there's some massive oversight, I don't see why the transition from 2022 to 2023 shouldn't go smoothly. Red Bull Powertrains will just inherit the engines and IP from Honda.

It's the manufacturing, assembly and trackside support that they will have to execute on in 2023 and beyond (which is way beyond just having a design and IP for that design). For example, imagine that even if Honda just gave them a bunch of parts and said "here put them together", and even if they had some QC testing. You can imagine that RBP is not going to be as good at it as Honda was. I expect that in 2022 (and now) there is going to be a lot of "shadowing" going on with RBP folks watching over the shoulders of Honda personnel. Plus some of that personnel (particularly some of the Milton Keys Honda folks) will transition from Honda to RBP (as the article calls out).

In short, there is plenty of ways for RBP to screw this up. But they have time to get it right. And I expect Honda will remain in the picture beyond 2023 in some capacity. Probably slowly and progressively reducing their involvement. But I expect there may always be some level of supply chain via Honda (i.e. who provides the cranks, pistons, specialized proprietary inhouse coatings, etc.). Even if RBP bring manufacturing inhouse. Take CNC work for example. They can't just take machine code (tool path) from whatever Honda is using and transfer it over unchanged to whatever RBP is using. It's likely RB may not be using the same type of CNC hardware that Honda does. So there will be some level of recreating the manufacturing process even if they have all of the technical drawings, and other data from Honda.

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

I haven't come across anything that suggests the current spec will be extended to 2025.

If you Google and look, you can find a number of articles that are now using 2026. I found at least one from a few months ago that called out the extension from 2025 to 2026, but it was just a brief mention.

I believe the most recent "Concorde Agreement" runs from 2021 through 2025. I think it is not a coincident that you have that agreement running through 2025, the current engine formula running through 2025 and I expect that along with the 2026 power unit, will come tweaks to the overall technical specifications. For example, it is expected that the 2026 power unit specs will ditch the MGU-H, increase the size of the MGU-K, increase the size of the battery pack, might even adjust (or even remove) the fuel flow restrictions (requiring larger fuel tanks???). All of those will impact size, weight and packaging of the overall power unit. I don't think the cars next year are expected to support the 2026 power units because things like fuel cell size, battery pack size and location, etc. are all baked into the overall design in a very basic way.

Richard

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

It's the manufacturing, assembly and trackside support that they will have to execute on in 2023 and beyond (which is way beyond just having a design and IP for that design). For example, imagine that even if Honda just gave them a bunch of parts and said "here put them together", and even if they had some QC testing. You can imagine that RBP is not going to be as good at it as Honda was. I expect that in 2022 (and now) there is going to be a lot of "shadowing" going on with RBP folks watching over the shoulders of Honda personnel. Plus some of that personnel (particularly some of the Milton Keys Honda folks) will transition from Honda to RBP (as the article calls out).

In short, there is plenty of ways for RBP to screw this up. But they have time to get it right. And I expect Honda will remain in the picture beyond 2023 in some capacity. Probably slowly and progressively reducing their involvement. But I expect there may always be some level of supply chain via Honda (i.e. who provides the cranks, pistons, specialized proprietary inhouse coatings, etc.). Even if RBP bring manufacturing inhouse. Take CNC work for example. They can't just take machine code (tool path) from whatever Honda is using and transfer it over unchanged to whatever RBP is using. It's likely RB may not be using the same type of CNC hardware that Honda does. So there will be some level of recreating the manufacturing process even if they have all of the technical drawings, and other data from Honda.

I'm sure RBR will have taken all that into consideration. As it is Honda will continue to work with RBR after they leave F1, which will enable a smooth transition.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/58826261

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

If you Google and look, you can find a number of articles that are now using 2026. I found at least one from a few months ago that called out the extension from 2025 to 2026, but it was just a brief mention.

I believe the most recent "Concorde Agreement" runs from 2021 through 2025. I think it is not a coincident that you have that agreement running through 2025, the current engine formula running through 2025 and I expect that along with the 2026 power unit, will come tweaks to the overall technical specifications. For example, it is expected that the 2026 power unit specs will ditch the MGU-H, increase the size of the MGU-K, increase the size of the battery pack, might even adjust (or even remove) the fuel flow restrictions (requiring larger fuel tanks???). All of those will impact size, weight and packaging of the overall power unit. I don't think the cars next year are expected to support the 2026 power units because things like fuel cell size, battery pack size and location, etc. are all baked into the overall design in a very basic way. Richard

I did Google and look but couldn't find anything, just articles saying the new spec comes in, in 2005. However, having read the article chillibowl posted and as the current Concorde Agreement runs from 2021 - 2025, 2026 would make more sense.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

I'm sure RBR will have taken all that into consideration. As it is Honda will continue to work with RBR after they leave F1, which will enable a smooth transition.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/58826261

Yeah, I think that article is similar to the one I posted earlier.

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

I did Google and look but couldn't find anything, just articles saying the new spec comes in, in 2005. However, having read the article chillibowl posted and as the current Concorde Agreement runs from 2021 - 2025, 2026 would make more sense.

A few examples. Including some going back to late last year...

https://www.motorauthority.com/news/...he-to-enter-f1

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/20...82012/4982012/

https://www.planetf1.com/news/2026-f...ainable-fuels/

Richard

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

Yeah, I think that article is similar to the one I posted earlier.

There have been other articles on Honda's continued collaboration with RBRm like this one from RN365.COM back in September,

https://racingnews365.com/honda-give...-2022-and-2023

and of course there has been the announcement, which coincided with the white livery launch.

https://www.gpblog.com/en/news/95737...2-onwards.html

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

A few examples. Including some going back to late last year...

https://www.motorauthority.com/news/...he-to-enter-f1

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/20...82012/4982012/

https://www.planetf1.com/news/2026-f...ainable-fuels/

Richard

Thanks for those, though it now appears academic the engine spec change will be in 2026. That gives RBR even more time to get it right.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

maybe just a phrasing thing...as in current spec goes to 2025 with new spec for 2026....but with covid and everything maybe it was pushed ahead a year?

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/o...plans/6681770/

with rumours of Audi and Porsche thinking about joining up etc so i look forward to them later denying it and then rubbishing F1 as being not relevant.

And will 2026 be the season when Honda returns to F1?

Masashi Yamamoto: "I personally think yes, we are going to be back. Now it’s a situation where Honda has to concentrate on the carbon neutral and we have to accelerate the project, but once it’s going well, I think there will be people who want to do F1 inside the company. It’s the history of the company and it’s very important''

[S griffin]

I think it was always the plan that Honda would continue providing some technical support to Red Bull

[steve_r]

Ok - so the Honda Hokey-Cokey continues, and they are now staying on as Engine Suppliers to the 2 Red Bull teams.

That's what it's all about.

[Sodemo]

So they are continuing, but will supply the engines from Japan, not the base in Milton Keynes? The base in MK is now ran by Red Bull as their own engine dev site, is that all correct?

[VIVA GT]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

So they are continuing, but will supply the engines from Japan, not the base in Milton Keynes? The base in MK is now ran by Red Bull as their own engine dev site, is that all correct?

That's how I read it as it will allow Red Bull Powertrains (or whatever it is called) to be classed as a 'new' manufacturer when the new engine regulations come in and as so, will qualify for a higher cost cap.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

So they are continuing, but will supply the engines from Japan, not the base in Milton Keynes? The base in MK is now ran by Red Bull as their own engine dev site, is that all correct?

'Red Bull’s Helmut Marko revealed that the deal for Honda to supply their engines from Japan will continue for the rest of this era. [...]
But now a complete change of plan has taken place with Marko, Red Bull’s driver programme boss, revealing that Honda will directly supply Red Bull with power units until the end of 2025, before the brand new PUs then arrive in 2026, at which Red Bull Powertrains [MK] would be properly taking over. [...]
As for the future of Red Bull Powertrains, the Austrian team’s focus can now be heavily placed on 2026 and the new engine regulations, with the facility at Milton Keynes set to be fully operational by May or June, according to Marko.'

[broadrun96]

Any chance this is the long game of getting Audi/Porsche in the day at the end of the current are?

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

Any chance this is the long game of getting Audi/Porsche in the day at the end of the current are?

Maybe. It seems to be killing two birds with one stone.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/h...-2025/7677145/
(my bold below)

The decision removes any concerns about issues such as quality control that might result from moving the building of the power units to the UK, while also freeing up RBP to focus more on its 2026 project.

The change has been made in part to ensure that RBP will still be a new participant when its own engine is introduced in 2026.

It will thus benefit from the concessions that are being discussed mainly to help encourage the VW Group to finally commit to F1, such as a higher power unit budget cap.

It's understood that details of the new arrangements have yet to be finalised, and it's not clear yet whether the engines will still be badged as Hondas until 2025, although such a move would be logical given the desire to ensure that RBP is a new participant in 2026.

1. It removes the risk of RBP doing final assembly (and introducing reliability issues) in UK vs. Honda doing it in Japan.

2. It appears to delay RBP as a new PU supplier until 2026. If it is not RBP, it must then be Honda (when listed in the PU suppliers)? I guess the power unit could still be labelled as something else (is the Ferrari in the Alfa Romeo badged as Ferrari or Alfa Romeo?) I don't understand all of the details, but it seems like if RBP came on as a new PU provider in 2022 then they miss out on some level of incentives or leverage with respect to 2026.

I think (as the article mentions) that it will be interesting if the power unit is badged as Honda or RBP. Also... It's interesting how much concessions were made for Red Bull by other teams (including development freeze between now and 2025) to support the Honda to RBP transition and now in many ways the Honda exit is being reversed. No doubt there will be more interesting details to follow on this story.

Richard

[chillibowl]

interesting games being played for sure.

but thats F1! glad that Honda will be back to help defend their title!

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by S griffin

I think it was always the plan that Honda would continue providing some technical support to Red Bull

That's how I have always understood it. Honda will continue until the end of 2025 and when new PU regulations come in, in 2026, Red Bull Powertrains then take over.