[WTCC] Equalisation...

[stedevil]

Originally Posted by Jon411

but are you allowed to change gearbox during the year?

Yes, you are allowed to do 1 change. And right now the 6sp sequential is a double whammy, 1 extra gear and 30kg LESS. Greatest bargain in WTCC currently.

Of course, the gearboxes cost a bit.

[Sodemo]

The only hope is that the extra weight punishes the SEAT more than the BMW regarding tyres. The races are so short that the BMW cannot play its joker which is tyre preservation. If the races were say 5 laps longer we might see the front drive cars struggle in the last laps, as it stands, this does not happen.

[touring fan01]

Originally Posted by stedevil

Puebla, at really high altitude, the track that has never ever favoured the BMW. EVerybody and their mother traditionally walked over them here. What happenens? Not only do BMW get pole, their pace all weekend is easily on par with the Seats. The only thing they do not manage is to actually win either race, but they have multiple podiums.

And that doesn't strike you as being at all strange?
You don't wonder why all of a sudden the Seats were 'off the pace' at a circuit they would (and have) dominated at and could only matched the BMW's pace????

You really, really don't think things through very well, do you? It is exactly as I said before. They are managing their performance so they don't get any more wight than the BMWs!!

So they get to win 3 out of 4 races, keep their lap times within the margin and don't get any greater weight penalty than their main opposition. Job done.

But you really can't see that? You really think that their lap times are the ultimate they can do all the time and the Seat team would not play those games to keep their advantage?

Wow. You are incredibly gullible.
Wake up and smell the coffee. Seat are playing a game and you have fallen for it.

[awrb]

Puig to Muller: "Slow down Yvan, you'll beat a BMW!!!"

The only time the SEAT's would risk not showing their full potential is when they're in a good lead, by not pulling away by as much as they could.

[touring fan01]

Originally Posted by awrb

Puig to Muller: "Slow down Yvan, you'll beat a BMW!!!"

The only time the SEAT's would risk not showing their full potential is when they're in a good lead, by not pulling away by as much as they could.

Well, if you were the Seat team manager and were staring down the barrel of a larger weight penalty after dominating the opening rounds, wouldn't you be telling your drivers to 'control' their performance and to drive within a lap time?

Particularly when they already can calculate exactly the lap time they should stick below so as to not trigger too much weight?

Not to throw away a result, but to still get a result by driving within a certain envelope? Just like in Mexico.

Which is exactly what they do. "Oops we showed our pace far too much in Brazil, boys, so lets try and keep the lap times within xxx range".
They are (rightly) playing the system, as any good team would do and I'm amazed that people here don't think they would!

The problem with this system is that the teams know precisely what times they need to keep within so as not to get too much weight thrown at them. Its a simple mathmatical calculation which they would be keeping their eye on to ensure they don't 'over achieve'.

[helterskelter]

Originally Posted by stedevil

The fact that you consider this a problem, totally ignoring WHY it is like that (as in what happened in the races) confirms that you are 100% biased towards BMW and can not accept them being beaten through teamwork and driver skill.

If JM would have started from the front in race 2 Curitiba, or ANY of the 4 BMWs up there would have had proper wet race setups, they would have had a win.

Also, in Puebla, Andy Priaux almost got a race win as well (he was easily 1s quicker than the 2 cars infront), but got only to 3rd because FARFUS held him back. Farfus couldn't pass the Seat infront of him, because his engine was overheating, but he sure wasn't going to let Andy past. He knows darn well Priaux is one of his main contenders for the WDC title and he wont deliberately give away 4-6 points relative to him.

Also, you convently scew the numbers to make your point by saying "4 seats in top 5" when place 3-6 are all separated by only 4 points in total (2 seats and 2 BMW), and that is WITH the huge Curitiba race 2 screwup.

If Im supposed to say something equally dumb and meaningless I can state "BMW is too light, because 6(!!) out of 10 cars in the top 10 are BMW... do I need to go on?"

Please come back to earth... it's pointless to have a discussion with you when your POV is that lobsided.

The reasons I consider are different from the ones that you consider. The thing is JM has NOT started on the front row, and anyway Tarquini would have thrown him out of the track, which is the driver skill of that SEAT driver.
You are confirming my analisys by saying that Priaulx was almost 1s quicker than Yvan but didn't manage to pass him, so you just go to my point. Of course Farfus held him back in race 1, SEAT drivers also fight during the race, if you think they don't watch Rydell and Tarquini or whoever else. It's racing, that's what they are paid for. Do I have to remind you that Tarquini and Yvan were free of fighting between each other all year long? If they don't, then they're killing the sport, as they choose the one who is going to win the championship. I hope SEAT are sportive enough to at least let the track decide who is the best SEAT driver, since the Federation enabled them to decide which car has to win. Not blaming SEAT at all, I'm talking about the Federation, I totally respect SEAT and their efforts.
You also ignore that there are 10 points out of 40 between the first two SEATs and the rest, which makes it a very equal championship. The Curitiba screwup can happen, it didn't happen with Jorg anyway. Priaulx said he had the same setup he used when he won in Pau, more or less, and they found out what the problem was and the next wet race will be a good laugh.
You also have to say, about 6 BMWs in the first 10, that SEAT have a driver like Monteiro, who didn't score any points though he drives a super car. Also, BMW have Porteiro in 10th, who is an independent, and anyway the 6 BMW drivers who have scored points don't make the points that 4 SEATs have scored. Do I have to continue?
It's a laugh a minute, really... I have to hear that I'm biased towards BMW but you are not biased towards SEAT. We all have opinions, of course, and of course I'm biased towards my opinion like you are towards yours, so don't play these games with me, as it's just silly. And the fact that I support BMW and therefore look closely to see why we are losing doesn't make my opinion less respectable. As I already mentioned in other topics, you are not respectful of opinions which are different from yours, which is sad. You keep laughing at us, it's just unpolite of you. Also you referred to something I said with the word 'dumb', which is offensive and also show how you get nervous talking about this stuff, maybe because you find the stuff we say makes some sense and you would even have to reconsider your undoubtable stuff.
So, please, you try to come back back to earth and see who leads the championship, who won it with 1 event to go last year and who narrowly lost it 2 years ago. These are facts, the rest are all 'if' and 'maybe' and 'hadn't they...'

[awrb]

I like the simple mathmatical calculation though, it makes it a rule, not this "ooh the SEAT's are fast, add weight!" we've had in the past.

Surely if they were slowing it down, Muller would try to slow it down a bit less, to get the better of his team mates, then Rydell would slow a bit less etc. Although the fact that Gene did ok in brazil does back up your theory.

I just don't see it myself. I guess we'll see at Marrakech who comes out on top. I think BMW and Chevy may surprise you.

[touring fan01]

Originally Posted by awrb

I guess we'll see at Marrakech who comes out on top. I think BMW and Chevy may surprise you.

I certainly hope so, for the sake of the series.

[helterskelter]

Originally Posted by touring fan01

I certainly hope so, for the sake of the series.

Me too, I hope so but TBH I don't believe it...

Originally Posted by redshoes01

That would only work if points were awarded to every driver. As it is there may be minimal performance difference between the car that continually finishes 8th and the car continually in 9th but by the end of the season there would be a significant difference in points.

Also all things being equal, BMW and SEATare less more to score points simply because they run more cars, so a system based purely on points would unduly handicap them.

What you say is true, infact I mentioned the best 2 cars of each model, with points awarder like in the Constructors' championship. Then you decide a maximum ballast, say, 40kg, and scale the rest of the ballasts by a -10kg compared to the model ahead, so that it would be like this (I'm totally inventing the ballasts, didn't make any calculations at all):
Leon TDI +40
320si E90 (H pattern) + 30
Cruze +20
Lada 110 +10
320si E90 (seq) 0

Just an example, I repeat. I believe it would be more effective in reflecting the compensations that have to be done to make a championship equal, which is the ultimate purpose of these regulations.

[stedevil]

Originally Posted by touring fan01

And that doesn't strike you as being at all strange?

No I don't think it's strage. They changed the track so it's a lot less slippery. That helps RWD cars more than FWD.

You really, really don't think things through very well, do you? It is exactly as I said before. They are managing their performance so they don't get any more wight than the BMWs!!

Actually I do think through things. You however apparently havn't even seen the actual races but are just making assumptions up from looking at the score table. Your entire "holding back" theory just falls apart once you see what is happening in the actual race.

It's amazing how you imagine Puig is on the radio to Yvan and Gabrielle saying "Let Priaux by!!" when eg Priaux was back in 5th place. You are aware of that scoring points doesnt give penalty weight, so giving up positions is NOT something that is a good idea, but somehow you just can't manage to connect the dots.

Well, if you were the Seat team manager and were staring down the barrel of a larger weight penalty after dominating the opening rounds

You apparently don't even understand how the penalty system works. Seat was only ahead of BMW by 0.15s in Curitiba, they need to be on average 0,35s quicker before BMW even gets 10kg less weight. That means they could have been 0,50s quicker in Puebla than BMW before BMW got 10kg less weight. There was absolutely no reason to go slower, let alone let BMW cars pass to score higher points.

So your teory is pure hogwash and has nothing to do with reality.

The only team I do think was playing the system is Chevy. They probably realized they didnt have much chanse to get any points and made sure to really go slow so they got the max 1,5s and a full -60kg for Africa + the flat floor. It's a new track, so it's difficult to know the relative differences between cars, but I would not be at all surprised if we find Chevy having a really good next weekend aided by both the flat floor and the -60kg. And look out for Zanardi as well, in his -60kg BMW on a track with few corners.

[stedevil]

Originally Posted by helterskelter

The thing is JM has NOT started on the front row

No, but luckily this years compensation weight system doesnt punish 1 team because another team screws up. Huge advantage from last year IMO, if you screw up, you pay for it. No unfair led added to the opposition because you were stupid.

Tarquini would have thrown him out of the track, which is the driver skill of that SEAT driver.

You know I share your opinion about T. He should definitly be penalized harder and more often.

You are confirming my analisys by saying that Priaulx was almost 1s quicker than Yvan but didn't manage to pass him, so you just go to my point.

The only point made here is that you are dilusional. Priaux got past Muller on lap 5 of 16. And once he got by also Tarquini, on lap 11, he managed to pick up speed and go 1s quicker. That is exactly what you would expect BTW, a RWD car getting progressivly quicker relative the FWD cars towards the end of a race. In Puebla you also had the heat, causing a car engine to overheat when following a car in front. So once out in free air Priaulx had no problems closing the gap to Rydell and Farfus.

You also ignore that there are 10 points out of 40 between the first two SEATs and the rest, which makes it a very equal championship.

No, I don't ignore that. But you continue to ignore why it is like that. If we remove the points for Curitiba race 2, where BMW screwed them selves over, you get the following championship table. Im seeing a tight championship standing, with the names I would expect in the places I would expect (with accidents explaining JM being so far behind the top 4) once we remove BMWs screw up. What do you see?

1	Yvan Muller	25
2	Rickard Rydell	22
3	Augusto Farfus	17
4	Andy Priaulx	16
5	Jordi Gené Guerrero	12
6	Gabriele Tarquini	9
7	Sergio Hernández	7
8	Jörg Müller	4
9	Alessandro Zanardi	3
10	Félix Porteiro	1

I have to hear that I'm biased towards BMW but you are not biased towards SEAT.

Actually, you are biased towards Andy. If he would be driving a Seat I'm confident you would be screaming about how much quicker the BMWs was on Puebla and how they need to have more weight added. And Matt I know just hates the Diesels, and he would complain even if they where chugging along behind the Ladas. For myself, I think I just look at the races and the numbers and see 2 equally competitive brands and react against others that are so blinded by their favoirtism that they can't see we have 2 well balanced brands at the top in WTCC, neither of them needing compensation weight to catch up.

As I already mentioned in other topics, you are not respectful of opinions which are different from yours, which is sad. You keep laughing at us, it's just unpolite of you.

Well, we already had a very long thread where in your opinion all other drivers in WTCC except Andy basically suck. What else can I do other than laugh? Cry perhaps?
PS Do note that Farfus is ahead of Priaulx in the standings. When I was saying he could easily be challenging for the WDC already this year, you laughed and said it would never happen, let alone this year. Sofar this year he hasn't made any stupid things, costing him a lot of points, and suddenly he is top BMW.

Also you referred to something I said with the word 'dumb', which is offensive

Well don't write dumb things, and I wont have to say it. It's not me who made a big song and dance about how a 4 point difference between place 3-6 was a sure sign of an unbalanced championship.

So, please, you try to come back back to earth and see who leads the championship, who won it with 1 event to go last year and who narrowly lost it 2 years ago.

Yes, it's the driver that me and most others on this forum recognize as one of the best TC drivers out there. One of the few people that disagrees is you.

[stedevil]

Originally Posted by stedevil

Seat was only ahead of BMW by 0.15s in Curitiba, they need to be on average 0,35s quicker before BMW even gets 10kg less weight. That means they could have been 0,50s quicker in Puebla than BMW before BMW got 10kg less weight. There was absolutely no reason to go slower, let alone let BMW cars pass to score higher points.

Sorry, looked at the wrong column. They would have needed to go 0.40s quicker in Puebla for going above 0.35s average and BMW to get less weight.

[helterskelter]

I don't disagree with Yvan being one of the best TC drivers in the world, just not the best. You always see what you want to see in what other people say, so you can attack them.
You are not better than I am, so you can't judge wether I write dumb things or not. I'm not falling into the trap of offending you, I believe I'm too correct to be as petty as you. Anyway, I think you must be respectful because my opinion is as respectable as yours, because I'm not the only one who thinks BMW have a disadvantage compared to SEAT though the laptimes are faster, and I already explained my point.
In the very long thread I never said that everyone except Andy sucks, and the thread is there, go back and read it or get some help for your memory. I said that Yvan absolutely deserved the World crown, that I like Huff, Thommo, Rydell and so many others. As usual you say untrue things to try to make your point, just like when talking about the BMW-SEAT thing. About Farfus, after 4 races it's too early to talk. Anyway, I never laughed at you, it's stuff that YOU do, I only said that I believe Farfus is more likely to screw up than Andy, and we will see who is right.
So you're saying you are neutral and that you are totally objective, while the rest of us who think differently from you are biased towards BMW? Of course I am towards BMW and Andy, and therefore I see the problems BMW and Andy have and react accordingly. But don't say you aren't biased towards SEAT because it's only there to show.
As I said before, I talk about facts and you talk about the 'if's. Anyway, what I see in your senseless classification, since it happens that you have problems in a race, like SEAT will sometime as they are not perfect, I see SEAT scoring 68 points with 4 cars and BMW scoring 48 points with 6 cars. Super equal, man! The fact that a mistake has been made doesn't hide the fact that Priaulx was faster than Yvan (I was talking about race 2, by the way, we were talking about different things) but he just didn't manage to get past because of the advantages the TDis have shown through the years.
Again, you call me dilusional, offending me again, while it was you who didn't understand what I was talking about. We have already agreed that BMW were faster in terms of laptimes compared to SEAT, and I said that this makes the problem even bigger, as IMO if a car that is so quicker than another one can't pass, then we have a problem to get sorted.
You keep talking about 'if', 'maybe' and you keep on showing us these tables that take a race off and show stuff that is not there in the championship. Take the real standings and tell me, honestly, which car looks stronger. Laptimes don't mean anything, race positions award points. Just tell me what did Andy screw up to determine himself being 2nd, where did Yvan and SEAT play a better driving and team effort. It's just that their car is too quick on the straights and when you go under braking you're too far from them to try to pass.
Facts, just facts.

[Sodemo]

Adding weight though is the wrong way to go about reducing the TDi performance, the way to tackle it is via further reducing the boost pressure of the turbo.

[awrb]

Maybe the BMW is really a better car, but the SEAT drivers are just doing a great job. It's a possibility, and I don't think they should be punished for that.

maybe the BMW's are faster but can't pass the SEAT's due to the TDi's and everything. That means BMW's engineers have some work to do, and SEAT did a good job. If you want a totally level playing field you're watching the wrong sport. Motorsport always has some teams with advantages, even one-make series, it's what it's all about.

And before you say anything, I'm a BMW fan, never liked the SEAT's and their melted car. I can see it's going to be a good close season though.

[helterskelter]

Originally Posted by awrb

Maybe the BMW is really a better car, but the SEAT drivers are just doing a great job. It's a possibility, and I don't think they should be punished for that.

maybe the BMW's are faster but can't pass the SEAT's due to the TDi's and everything. That means BMW's engineers have some work to do, and SEAT did a good job. If you want a totally level playing field you're watching the wrong sport. Motorsport always has some teams with advantages, even one-make series, it's what it's all about.

And before you say anything, I'm a BMW fan, never liked the SEAT's and their melted car. I can see it's going to be a good close season though.

For me it's weird to think that the fact that the SEATs are winning is only due to the skill of their drivers. I believe there's far more in it thn just team and driver effort.
Of course SEAT did a fantastic job, as I said many times I'm not blaming them, I'm blaming the Federation. Anyway, there'snot much you can squeeze out of the BMW engines anymore, and it's not only about power but also the way a diesel delivers it. But again, SEAT are allowed to use the diesel and have done a great job with it, hat off to them. Only, I'd appreciate Puig not saying that they are the 3rd car in the field, as it is absolutely untrue: he'd better say that SEAT have a great team, great drivers and a great car with a super engine. Then I'd be ok with it.
What I would like to see is different makes winning, like in 2007: that was the perfect performance balance IMO, at least until the TDi came in, and anyway you could see Menu winning tons of races and Priaulx and Yvan fighting for the championship. I want to wake up for Macau and see a thrilling race like should happen in touring cars, otherwise I'll wtch F1, if I wanna fall asleep

[awrb]

I agree with you on Puig's comment, I read that and thought it was both wrong and disrespectful to the engineers. I think we will have lots of different winners, but as you said before in relation to Farfus, "after 4 races it's too early to talk".

I don't like SEAT much, but they're doing a great job. Its not this penalty system that's broken, its the regs. I like the innovation of open regs, but it does lead to problems. I'd rather everyone uses the same style engine, just to make it fair. then if someone dominates, they did well, and thats all. The rest then catch up by improving their cars.

[stedevil]

Originally Posted by helterskelter

I'm not the only one who thinks BMW have a disadvantage compared to SEAT though the laptimes are faster, and I already explained my point.

Yes, and I already summed up that POV several days ago. "If BMW is not winning, the rules must be broken". And I will contuine to laugh at people with that standpoint and I dont care that it offends you.

So you're saying you are neutral and that you are totally objective, while the rest of us who think differently from you are biased towards BMW?

Well, Chevy fans don't seem to be that fanatical, and they would actually have reason to complain. Lada fans are also easily counted, but no *****ing and moning from that camp either. Only BMW fans seems to shout and make a scene when their brand is not substantially quicker than everybody else. If BMW is only marginally quicker, like in Puebla, it is apparently also reason enough to complain as evident in this thread. If any side should be complaining after the Puebla results, it should be Seat, yet it's still (some of) the pro BMW crowd complaining. That is just so lame I don't even know where to begin to describe it.

As I said before, I talk about facts and you talk about the 'if's.

No, you talk about results, but ignore the facts that gave those results. The facts that gave those results are not "if's". It's the actual direct reasons for the results.

I see SEAT scoring 68 points with 4 cars and BMW scoring 48 points with 6 cars. Super equal, man!

As long as BMW keep doing the lone wolf strategy like on Curitiba and SEAT actually work as a team, the results should look like that. The question is, how long will it take BMW to start working as a team on tracks where it's an advantage? Will they get it soon, or will it take until Chevy or even Lada starts beating them before they will change their proven not working way?

Also, if you want to sum up points, in Puebla Seat 5 factory cars scored 39points, BMW 5 factory cars scored 38points. OMG!!! Seat needs at 100kg extra weight to even out that huge difference.

In short, the compensation weight system is working perfectly, it's making sure the cars are equal in performance, not punishing individual drivers or teams because the opposition screwed up and gave them points for free.

(I was talking about race 2, by the way, we were talking about different things)

I was clearly talking about race 1 and you stated I proved your point. I cant help you don't know what you are talking about and confuse race 1 and race 2 laptimes.

Take the real standings and tell me, honestly, which car looks stronger.

SEAT look a lot stronger. The reson being, they can actually work like a team, while BMW apparently can't. First BMW screwed up qualifying at Curitiba, by send their cars out there 1 by 1. At the reverse grid race they where in perfect position to gain back the disadvantage, standing start and 1-4 on the grid. Instead the screwed up again, faulty wet race setup made them trip themselves up. So again, broken down teamwork is the reason for only 1 car having the right settings (JM) and the result shows that.

And again, luckily, this year team screwups doesnt automatically give the opposition extra weight to lug around. BMW just have to pull them selves together and not make more such mistakes, and hope Seat does, so they have a better chance at closing the gap. I do hope SEAT sent BMW a big thankyou card as well after Curitiba. Those 10 bonus points given away by BMW could easily determine the championship this year.

Just tell me what did Andy screw up to determine himself being 2nd, where did Yvan and SEAT play a better driving and team effort.

In Curitiba Andy and BMW screwed up, massively. If you just can't understand how that affects the scores, I can't help you any more. And Yvan walked away with 15 points in Puebla, Andy with 14. And dont take my word for it, go ask Andy is he is dissatisfied with 14 points from Puebla yourself.

[stedevil]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

Adding weight though is the wrong way to go about reducing the TDi performance, the way to tackle it is via further reducing the boost pressure of the turbo.

The real solution IMO would be to finally allow Turbo Petrols. All new fuel engines coming will likely have it, because it's a much smarter way to design a fuel efficient engine than the 100+ year old NA otto engine. Just look at the Biogas car in STCC, Turbo as well.

NA egines are outdated technology that nobody is interested in spending money on developing, so the only fair way forward would be to allow TP asap.

[stedevil]

Originally Posted by awrb

I agree with you on Puig's comment, I read that and thought it was both wrong and disrespectful to the engineers.

Since he is a direct party, I would take all his comments with a 5kg bag of salt.

[helterskelter]

You are never respectful of any of those who think differently from you, which makes your opinions as important as a drop in the ocean. If you don't respect you don't deserve respect neither. The fact that a person like you laughs at me makes me happy, as IMO you have a point of view that's only Puig's, I try to use moderation and you try to offend, That's ok, it only confirms the opinion I had of you before. I want to remark that I never offended you, though, while you did, which proves you attack in order to defend your weak point of view.
It wasn't clear which race you were talking about, you try to make yourself clearer and explain yourself better.
Chevy have other problems, they hardly make it to the finish as they don't have a competitive car yet. Last year they were complaining just as we did, so if you don't know things just don't mention them, or someone may think you're stretching the reality to twist it the way you want it to look.
I don't ignore the reasons, I explain them differently and probably you don't even bother reading them, as they have no worth for you, since you possess the absolute truth.
Consider that SEAT have scored with 4 cars, not 5, because one of their drivers is just too slow, and change your analysis accordingly, then tell me. And anyway you're overdoing, which is another thing that makes me understand that you realize your point is weak, so you try to attack once again. They don't need ballast, they need a power reduction, so that they have a smaller advantage on the straights and BMW drivers can pass. FOr the show and for the sport, not just for BMW.
Curitiba was a mistake, it's true, but I hope SEAT are not as antisportive as you. The cars have changed this year and they didn't manage to find a good setup for the wet, it happens, it doesn't make BMW teams fools and SEAT Sport some gods on Earth. In Puebla BMW did everything well and still didn't manage to win although on a faster car in terms of laptime. That's the thing that is killing the championship. I support Priaulx and therefore was there jumping all over the place hoping for him to pass, but what would a non-fan have done if he watched 3 laps of that race? He'd have turned the tv on a ballet show, it'd have been more of a thrill. That's the point, and you can't deny that it is true that BMWs can't overtake the SEATs.
ANd, just to point out, I asked you about Puebla and you put Curitiba forward, which means you can't answer to my question. I have to assume you think I'm right about Puebla. FInally, it was not Andy who screwed up, he was touched and had a deflating tire for the whole Race 1 and still managed to get a 9th (which then became 7th) and then the team got the setup wrong, but it won't happen next time as they have understood what didn't work. As usual, you don't know things but still you talk about it, just to attack and offend people.
Maybe this discussion is pointless, since you don't respect me and therefore think I'm some stupid j**k writing here, while I'm a respected journalist in Italy and in the Wtcc paddock; but well, if you think differently, I accept that and will react accordingly.

[helterskelter]

I talked to Jorg Muller about the TDi and he replied that it would be the best way to kill the championship. He says turbo are hard to check for scrutineering and that his experience shows that everytime the championship he was in allowed turbo engines, it died because the costs were raising. TBH I don't believe Proteam or Sunred would be happy to put a turbo on their cars.
Having said that, if all the pieces are standard, provided by FIA and they don't give a particular advantage to anyone, then it would be a very good idea. If they find a way not to let the problems I exposed before actually happen then I'd be ok with it, if it means that the championship becomes more equal and with less discussions between the manufacturers

[stedevil]

Originally Posted by helterskelter

It wasn't clear which race you were talking about

It was extremely clear which race I was talking about, because never ever was Farfus ahead of Prialux in race 2.

Chevy... ... Last year they were complaining just as we did

Who are "we"? Are you an employee of BMW? Or are you saying Chevy fans were complaining? If so, please provide a link on thios forum of Chevy fans complaining that the opposition is too quick a weekend, let alone a weekend were all the fastest laps came from Chevy drivers...

Consider that SEAT have scored with 4 cars, not 5, because one of their drivers is just too slow, and change your analysis accordingly

And BMW scored those numbers with only 3 cars in race 1. And JM was brutally taken off track by GT in race 2, and STILL they only lost the weekend tally with 1 single point.

They don't need ballast, they need a power reduction so that they have a smaller advantage on the straights and BMW drivers can pass.

Exactly, because after all it should never ever be possible to pass a BMW... and making SEAT unfairly underpowered would fit perfectly for that plan. After all, if SEAT is slower both on the twisty parts AND the straights, it will be a great championship...

Curitiba was a mistake, it's true,

Finally some progress. Now lets see how long it takes until you connect the mistake with the championship points standings being like they are.

In Puebla BMW did everything well and still didn't manage to win although on a faster car in terms of laptime. That's the thing that is killing the championship.

The main reason BMW didnt score a win in Puebla race 2 IMO would be GT unfairly running JM off the track. JM had already passed Gene once before that, just didnt manage to make it stick, before GT sent him off track. Luckily karma kicked GT in the nuts, but I would still liked to have him had at least a grid drop for next race. GT was also trying to turn Farfus around by bumping him in the back at the start of race 1, so he definitly deserves a penalty in my book. Definitly the dirtiest driver in WTCC.

and you can't deny that it is true that BMWs can't overtake the SEATs.

That statment is pure and simply ridicoulus considering BMW passed SEATs multiple times in both races. But of cource that doesnt matter the slightest to you, because all you are looking at in a race is if Andy is winning or not. It doesnt even matter that Andy himself passed several Seats, but since he didnt manage to pass Yvan and take the win, SEATs are "unpassable". FFS! WATCH THE RACE! And then come back and try to say how no BMW managed to pass a SEAT.

I asked you about Puebla

No, you asked when/were did BMW screw up. And I answered. Read your own message.

Re Turbo, yes naturally all parts would need to be standard parts and the increased costs come mainly from 2 things. Research & Development (which will be minimal with a standard part) and people breaking the Turbounits by overstressing them (which should also go away if FIA regulates the pressure and/or it's considered a part of the engine package = change it too often and you get a grid drop).

The advantage is that all new and old types of engines can compete with reasonably similar basic setup in future road car relevant situations.

[helterskelter]

I wrote: Just tell me what did Andy screw up to determine himself being 2nd, where did Yvan and SEAT play a better driving and team effort.
When was Andy 2nd behind Yvan? Think before talking, which you don't seem to do much often.
You put forward Farfus while I was talking about Priaulx-Muller, again a misunderstanding.
When you support someone you use the 'us', it's common, but of course if you don't respect anyone I suppose you also don't have the sensibility to stick to a brand and a driver. As for the 'Chevy' thing, there are interviews I did with Huff and Menu stating the Seats were too quick in Valencia last year, so as usual you talk without knowing.
JM was taken out by GT who was disqualified, so one car less for Seat and 1 car less for BMW, we go back to the numbers I mentioned before.
It wouldn't be unfairly underpowered, since now they are unfairly overpowered as they have a turbo. It's the same old problem, you keep defending it but it's not a decent point, as the top speeds speak for themselves. I said, anyway, that SEAT should have LESS advantage, not be slower than the BMWs of course, but again you overdo and make me look as I said things I never said, which is what a person with a weak opinion does.
It's not a progress, it's something I always stated. Let's see how long it takes before you connect your brain with your hands when writing and look at the standings as they are, without saying 'if the mistakes hadn't been done', as mistakes happen but SEAT are dominating. You can't prove BMW would have won if the mistakes wouldn't have been made, so think before talking, again.
Luckily we share the same opinion about GT, otherwise we'd really have a hard argument. Anyway, once again we can't prove JM would have done what Andy hasn't been able to do.
Your statements are ridicoulous, since you consider a triple world champion passing a driver like Genè, a guy pretty incline to making mistakes: take the 2 world class drivers, Yvan and Andy and then compare them. Of course BMW have been able to pass sometimes, we're not under SC when racing, but in the end it's useless to pass as they have Tarquini who pushes the BMWs off when they pass, anyway. Before you say anything, I want to remind you that I always recognized Yvan (and also Rydell, another super experienced driver and a correct but hard one) as being a super driver, so that's what you also have to take into account. There are some drivers who fully exploit the power of the Leon TDi, and those are virtually not overtakable.
About the Turbo, you also have to consider that of course every engine would have to be redesigned, some partially and some totally, in order to work at their best with a turbo, but it would also be a one-off expense, so it'd be ok IMO, if the changes are done properly and gradually, with a long period between announcing the new rules and making them effective. For instance, if they decide it in June this year, the changes would have to be effective from 2011 on.

[awrb]

Originally Posted by helterskelter

without saying 'if the mistakes hadn't been done', as mistakes happen but SEAT are dominating. You can't prove BMW would have won if the mistakes wouldn't have been made, so think before talking, again.

But if the mistakes weren't made SEAT wouldn't be dominating. It's a very valid point. Mistakes are made in sports, thats what the whole things about.

Are you suggesting that SEAT should be punished because BMW made mistakes?

Of course BMW have been able to pass sometimes, we're not under SC when racing, but in the end it's useless to pass as they have Tarquini who pushes the BMWs off when they pass, anyway.[/SIZE]

That makes no sense (and is backtracking on an earlier statement, but I'll let that pass). Are you suggesting that the BMW drivers are thinking "I won't pass Yvan because Tarquini will take me off". That makes no sense.

You also mentioned JM not being able to do what AP hasn't done all year, as if driver skill was the problem there. I like Priaulx, but Muller is faster. Not as consistent, but on his day...