Champion of Brands

[mattray]

I'll ask the same things in a slightly more friendly/respectful way

Hi James, good to see there will be something happening at Brands again! So good of you to sort it after my having moved to the area! I know it's early days but is there a championship sponsor in the pipeline? Dates, people don't tend to travel so I doubt it will make a difference. Glad I don't have to try to please everyone with that one!

and lastly, what format are you planning on running? sorry if this has been mentioned earlier, I started reading back and saw the word Zetec and switched off.....

thanks

Matt

[JohnMiller]

Hopefully just FF1600s and, even then, not the five class system of the last few years of the BRSCC. Two classes best. Old ones (pre 90) and newer ones (post 89).

[driftwood]

I would be happy to see 3 classes at CoB pre90 post 89 maakes alot of sense but i would like to see some sort of pre 85 or 84 class to encourage some older cars that are langisihuing in garages to be sold prpped and raced and having an individual class will justify some guys getting lola T640-44 model or 83/4 VD etc
but i do agree we dont want too many classes
Pre 72 HSCC have plenty of events and Classic FFord seem to run 73-81 ish cars pre rocker suspension so this void neds to be filled hence my pre 85 ish class
The first year will be hard but now that a CoB serie sis being formulated there are 7 months for guys to go buy a car or drag out the race car they have had for 10 years or so and prepare

[Triple J Motorsport]

I would think 3 classes is needed post 89 pre 90 and pre 85/84 or 83.

You want as many cars as possible out racing after all.

John

[SCOBER11]

It won't matter how many classes you have the lads who have spent the last few years "building" their old cars will still be building them for the next few years.
I'm sure what ever system James comes up with will be the correct one for the championship.

[driftwood]

i dont think there have been any guys "building" these older cars they have just sat in garages but now they have the option of rebuilding to race or sell or just a possible market to sell into for some one else to rebuild the car and race hence why i suggest the 3rd class for these in between group cars
i can lay my hand son 3 lola 644e cars= good cars of their day but would you buy for OP pre 89 class?
If there is a CoB pre 86 ish class it gives the VD82 4 lola 640 reynard 84 cars some where to run in
not everyone has 10k for 89 reynard or 15 for ray or vd 2000 plus car
welcome any kent engine class structure that gets bums in seats on grid
i reckon first race will be 12 cars grwoingtowards 20 so long as dates do not clash with any other FFord race in UK

[Triple J Motorsport]

Originally Posted by driftwood

i dont think there have been any guys "building" these older cars they have just sat in garages but now they have the option of rebuilding to race or sell or just a possible market to sell into for some one else to rebuild the car and race hence why i suggest the 3rd class for these in between group cars
i can lay my hand son 3 lola 644e cars= good cars of their day but would you buy for OP pre 89 class?
If there is a CoB pre 86 ish class it gives the VD82 4 lola 640 reynard 84 cars some where to run in
not everyone has 10k for 89 reynard or 15 for ray or vd 2000 plus car
welcome any kent engine class structure that gets bums in seats on grid
i reckon first race will be 12 cars grwoingtowards 20 so long as dates do not clash with any other FFord race in UK

Totally agree except the pre 86 cut off. There was no really different between the RF85 and RF86 expect the picnic table was removed from the back bodywork

[jimmyRF87]

I really hope this does happen. This would be great to spectate and i predict would attract large grids by the end of the year, as pretty much has the south/south-east of england as a catchment area. and hopefully i'll manage to enter a few rounds, living on the south coast this gives me another circuit to race my rf87as well as castle combe (once it's up and running anyway).

[Triple J Motorsport]

Originally Posted by jimmyRF87

I really hope this does happen. This would be great to spectate and i predict would attract large grids by the end of the year, as pretty much has the south/south-east of england as a catchment area. and hopefully i'll manage to enter a few rounds, living on the south coast this gives me another circuit to race my rf87as well as castle combe (once it's up and running anyway).

And London on it's door step...and would be the only Brands only championship so hopefully attract new drivers to FF

[GraveltrapNigel]

Much as I loved the Kent engine, I feel that it's time to say goodbye to it other than in historic racing. It's ancient now. The number of engines/classes being mulled for C of B is a big turnoff. You want 1 engine now in all Formula Ford championships, national and regional (other than historic). That's the only way to get back to real, fair racing where if you win a race you know you beat the whole field properly and not just because you were in a quicker class.
It would also make for a return to a proper Festival eventually.

[driftwood]

there are MORE kent engine cars around than zetecs/duratecs
Coombe OP Knockhill Mondell kirkiston have good grids as do pre 72 historics classic FFord series
CoB is for Kent cars its simple to have 3 basic era classes and fill up the grid and ENCOURAGE cars to be rebuilt to run that are lying dormant and at a lower value to also entice new younger blood to the racing

[kartingdad]

Kent engines are a pest. The reliability and durability is suspect.

There appears too be very little (none) post race scrutiny of engines and I wonder how many of the rapid self built engines are in fact legal?

It would be easy to introduce a duratec engined kent equivalent, sealed at first use by the MSA and used initially for the post 89 class only. It will last forever and would pay for itself easily in the course of 2 seasons. You would also be able to flog your spare kent engine as well!

I know there would be a lot of blather from the older classes about it not being a level playing field, but when was the last time even a brilliantly driven pre 89 car beat a similairly driven post 89 car. Its far from a level playing field anyway, and made even more difficult by the disparity in engines.

[jimmyRF87]

I'm not sure the 100 or so kent engine ff drivers would all be willing to buy a new Duratec engine just so that they can race in brands championship. Also i doubt it's straight forward just putting a new duratec engine into a chassis designed for kent/zetec engine. I also assume that a rebuild will still be required on a duratec engine at the end of a season and that could be more costly than a kent rebuild and probably not as easy to do in ones garage with a limited budget and tools. There are a lot of kent engines racing most weekends in the uk, but there are relatively very few engine failures, and i doubt any engine that is being built for racing is bullet proof, as being designed to small tolerences to enhance performance they won't be, you probably don't hear of many duratecs blowing up as there's only 20 or so duratec ff's racing. I'm not quite sure how buying a brand new engine would pay for itself, or come anywhere near.
However, i don't see why thay can't start a duractec club racing series, but it shouldn't be done at the expense of the another very popular series, if your not happy with kent engines you don't have to race with them. Maybe running side by side championships and one day it may evolve in the next 10 or 20 years and duratec may take over club ff racing, but it doesn't need to be an enforced change overnight

[kartingdad]

Wasn't suggesting it just for Brands series, but for whole country. And i reckon you just use a standard duratec engine that will probably do 2 seasons between rebuilds. Anyway, sorry for highjacking a Brands topic....

[driftwood]

i cant see a logicical reason to change from kent to duratec for club racing usa is proposing the honda engine idea it might work for 3 seasons in the nationals but not at club level
Australia went duratec for nationals but local clubs stuck to kent
its a simple format to keep them running save smany folks the expense of replumbing wiring the car exhaust remade etc etc rather pay for rebuild of kent more often

they tried zetec club series heaps of cars around to buy and run but not a lot of interest so it died off

[driftwood]

i see oulton park the reynard 84 won teh race tom bradshaw in newer car was 3rd but i imagine he fell off somewhere as his fastest lap is 2 or 3 sec faster than the 1st 2nd place guys
usually pre 90 cars win when its wet

[SpeedyJay]

Originally Posted by jimmyRF87

I also assume that a rebuild will still be required on a duratec engine at the end of a season and that could be more costly than a kent rebuild and probably not as easy to do in ones garage with a limited budget and tools. There are a lot of kent engines racing most weekends in the uk, but there are relatively very few engine failures, and i doubt any engine that is being built for racing is bullet proof, as being designed to small tolerences to enhance performance they won't be, you probably don't hear of many duratecs blowing up as there's only 20 or so duratec ff's racing. I'm not quite sure how buying a brand new engine would pay for itself, or come anywhere near.

I'm sorry I can't let this one go!

The Zetec engine was bullet proof, I did three seasons on one engine with out doing much more than check the oil and water, the Duratec unit is even better. To keep a kent running there is so much more care needed to be taken because they're that much more fragile and that means money.

Having been envolved at all levels with all three engine varients I get really annoyed at people suggesting that previously zetec and now duratecs would cost that much more to run than Kent. That's a pure myth!

The option that's been floating around for a couple of years of a detuned duratec engine based car on acb10's in my view would be perfect to take club FF forward as well as Champion of Brands series ALONG SIDE a kent engined race. but as Tofty quoted a while back avoid the class stucture.

[driftwood]

Whilst i dont disagree on what you say re the zetec duratec running the dilema is will a kent chassis owner replace his kent that at present costs him not a lot
but with a zetec duratec motor he will incur these costs
1 he has to buy the motor
2 fit it re wire up the ecu sensores etc and oil water re plumb poss make new rads? 3 make fit new exhaust


CoB i have no interest in mixed engine class happy to have 3 classes of chassis years to cover the range of cars that dont have a series to run in ie 81-85 cars as classic & pre 72 are sorted and pre 90 post 90 makes sense across the globe now and i think there are 81-85 cars in garages unused that need to be dragged out

[itsonlyme]

Originally Posted by driftwood

i see oulton park the reynard 84 won teh race tom bradshaw in newer car was 3rd but i imagine he fell off somewhere as his fastest lap is 2 or 3 sec faster than the 1st 2nd place guys
usually pre 90 cars win when its wet

I am led to believe that the class A and B cars started from the back of the grid with a time penalty as it was just a pre 90 championship race with post 89 being allowed to race for a bit of fun as the national champ was at mondello, and from what i hear there was fun and games in that meeting ..............

[SpeedyJay]

You're right, any Club Duratec series that ran would need to be open to any chassis, old or new, that is part of what makes Formula Ford. The older the chassis the more difficult a retro fit would be and therefore more money.

A duratec engine built with current national class bits including ECU and engine loom would cost around £7.5k. I know that the cost of the ECU can be cut back from conversations I've had and at the same time detuning the engine. From what I hear that cost is equivelent to two seasons running a Kent engine?

The engines are more effiecent on cooling (all alloy) so rads should be ok, exhaust, yes ok, more money.

But if the regs where crafted properly and simpathetically to old chassis being converted and new chassis be de-spec'd I'm sure it would be accessable for a large portion of current cars/runners. It would also be a market place for the current national championship cars, especially when the new chassis regs come into being!

[driftwood]

A duratec at £7500 is more than many ff cars WITH a kent in race ready order

[SpeedyJay]

How much is that Kent going to cost you to keep running until the end of the season?

[JohnMiller]

Why do people want to force FF1600 0wners to change their motors?

If there is demand for a Club Duratec series, then one of these keen types should put some money where there mouth is and promote one, and leave those who want to race Kents to do what they want to do.

[SpeedyJay]

Whoa, no ones forcing anyone!

[08u05]

Originally Posted by JohnMiller

Why do people want to force FF1600 0wners to change their motors?

If there is demand for a Club Duratec series, then one of these keen types should put some money where there mouth is and promote one, and leave those who want to race Kents to do what they want to do.

I'm sure we're going to see Duratec engined cars allowed into the 750MC F4 championship before long.....

Any idea of possible numbers for this championship next year, would be great to see 20/30 kent cars blast around Brands Hatch regularly, rather than just at the festival.