Champion of Brands

[GraveltrapNigel]

Originally Posted by driftwood

there are MORE kent engine cars around than zetecs/duratecs
Coombe OP Knockhill Mondell kirkiston have good grids as do pre 72 historics classic FFord series
CoB is for Kent cars its simple to have 3 basic era classes and fill up the grid and ENCOURAGE cars to be rebuilt to run that are lying dormant and at a lower value to also entice new younger blood to the racing

There may well be more kent engined cars around, but by clinging onto the past with an ancient engine it's actually doing nothing for the future of Formula Ford.

[JNWRF01]

surely Sports 2000 is the mandate here. They have new cars with new Duratecs (that they have spec'd themselves not relied on Ford to do it for them). THey also have older Sports 2000 retro fitted with duratec lumps. From what I see at the FF Festival every year - they get massive grids with the new engines giving new life to the class (which was basically dead before).

Nobody can argue that there is a cost difference (modern kent / duratec cars seem to cost the same looking at RCD etc) - undoubtedly duratec engines are cheaper to run - but the most important thing (and why I don;t race kents) is there is parity amongst the engines.

Club duratec based at Brands would get all the national boys looking for extra mileage - with a merry group of keen amateurs (myself included) looking to get the chance to race a national spec car and club prices. Would be seriously good racing..

[driftwood]

parity between engines is an age old argument F1 DFV had a range of power depending on how many shekels you could afford
If you want parity
1 weight limits car driver fuelled up at start of race or end of race whatever folk seek
2 mobile rolling road at circuits randomly checking cars ate events or doing the full grid and setting a max bhp at wheels
my brother races motorbikes akin to FFord type rules BUT they set 72bhp and all bike sget rolling road tested thru the year and even at the event

[JohnMiller]

Several people want Club Duratec. I think that is great, but it shouldn't affect those who want to race Kents.

If you want to race Duratecs it is simple, go and deal with the BRSCC (or whoever) and agree a contract for the £100 per minute track time that it costs (might be more at Brands).

Then sort your regs and promote the new series, hopefully having gained some modest sponsorship which really isn't that difficult.

If you get a lot of entries you will make a profit...

[JNWRF01]

Originally Posted by driftwood

parity between engines is an age old argument F1 DFV had a range of power depending on how many shekels you could afford
If you want parity
1 weight limits car driver fuelled up at start of race or end of race whatever folk seek
2 mobile rolling road at circuits randomly checking cars ate events or doing the full grid and setting a max bhp at wheels
my brother races motorbikes akin to FFord type rules BUT they set 72bhp and all bike sget rolling road tested thru the year and even at the event

Nobody is arguing that older engines do produce disparity in performance - and typically the more you spend equates to the faster you go. I have heard of many "good" kent engines fetching well over £5k.

In my experience of Zetecs (and that of many others on here) is with modern production techniques and a standard ECU, is that there is little if any difference between motors. A brand new F4 spec Zetec engine - ready to bolt in is c£4500 complete with everything exc exhaust. If you assumed that this would be another £800 - then this is the right sort of money to make people think twice about rebuilding their kent motors every year. OK - would have to alter chassis looms and adaptor plates - but this is not mega money.

I personally doubt club duratec will ever happen as there are too many people with vested interests not willing to meet customer demand - ie make our sport cheaper!

[driftwood]

its a bit like if it aint broke why fix it?
kents run all day long
if there is a problem with perfromance between kents get a rolling road and impliment a rule to stop 5k cortina engines being built
or have a race weight limit to level the playing field

[Triple J Motorsport]

Originally Posted by JNWRF01

Nobody is arguing that older engines do produce disparity in performance - and typically the more you spend equates to the faster you go. I have heard of many "good" kent engines fetching well over £5k.

In my experience of Zetecs (and that of many others on here) is with modern production techniques and a standard ECU, is that there is little if any difference between motors. A brand new F4 spec Zetec engine - ready to bolt in is c£4500 complete with everything exc exhaust. If you assumed that this would be another £800 - then this is the right sort of money to make people think twice about rebuilding their kent motors every year. OK - would have to alter chassis looms and adaptor plates - but this is not mega money.

I personally doubt club duratec will ever happen as there are too many people with vested interests not willing to meet customer demand - ie make our sport cheaper!

Jez why not see if the 750MC would promote a Club Duratec Class? To start with in F4, hopefully in year 2 being new seperate series. I can't see anyone else putting the customer first!

Cheap Scholar sports 2000 ECUs cheap F4 / kent type exhausts. Plenty of second hand Duratec rollers floating around. Only other change being ACB10s (same alloy wheels, dampers, calipers etc). So only ECU Exhaust and tyres need changing either way. Or just change tyres to ACB10s....

[FFmygale]

Originally Posted by JohnMiller

Why do people want to force FF1600 0wners to change their motors?

If there is demand for a Club Duratec series, then one of these keen types should put some money where there mouth is and promote one, and leave those who want to race Kents to do what they want to do.

Exactly...."why do people want to force FF1600 owners to change their motors".................. after all FF1600 in this country is in rude health. From what I can see, from this season atleast, most of the championships (apart form Combe admittedly) have, at a guess, about 10 to 15 cars entered in each race. I haven't looked at the stats but from a gut feeling this seems to be down, one hell of a lot, from previous years. Surely this is not all due to the current economic situation?????

In my opinion, these aren't great numbers, and surely even you can see this John? Personally I think that the reliability, performance disparity, and cost issues that surround the kent engine probably have a part to play in these dwindling numbers also.

What is being suggested is the creation of a duratec engined class to run with Kent FF's that would be performance equalised (admittedly due to weight distribution differences I would guess this could be difficult to achieve - but not necessarily impossible). People would have the CHOICE to adapt their cars to run in this spec, but, hopefully if the equalisation is possible, Kent cars would be able to compete with these cars. This is not FORCING the change.

The alternative is to continue as we are with the kent engine, and with some race entries as low as 10 or 12 cars hope, just hope, that for some reason entry numbers miraculously start to rise before the MSA starts withdrawing champion status for the 3 regional championships that remain in existence.

Also, can I ask why there is such a strong reluctance by many (clearly not all!) competitors to consider if such a proposal has merit?

[JohnMiller]

I think the poor grid numbers are due to the bad job of promoting and organising that has been the order of the day for the last few years, which hopefully can be improved with the likes of JEB, and others, efforts.

I'm not against Club Duratecs, far from it, and I might even have a go if it existed, but I don't see why it has to be to the detriment of the Kent which, I think inevitably, split engine/classes would be. Just like Zetec was.

If you negotiate with the clubs you wouldn't need massive numbers to get a pilot series going. Run two classes - Zetecs and Duratecs. Somebody entrepreneurial should give it a go, but not me.

[driftwood]

agree with you john on this
however the GFC does have an impact on many formulas i would suggest 20%
ive done nowt this year and i know of 4 others who have licence but not even been to a test day!

[FFmygale]

I just find it hard to believe that part of the reason for dwindling numbers is not due to the cost of running/maintaing a kent engine as well as the perceived performance disparities frustrating people.

I am talking about club duratec being performance equalised to the kent engine - Zetec was never this. If the performance equalisation can be achieved (and my limited engineering knowledge has doubts about this!) then I just don't see that allowing people to choose whether to run Duratec or kent would be detrimental, in any greater way than allowing year 2000 onwards cars to compete. Its pretty much accepted now that these are the marginally quicker chassis to use (apart from when a particularly talented nut sits behind the wheel) and hence it is expected that these will usually be at the front of the field. As it is most likely that it will be these years of chassis that would find it easiest to convert to Duratec, I really don't see there being a great deal of difference in class structures.

[kartingdad]

there does seem to be a disparity between engines. Oddly enough from what I have seen and heard, it is the 'self built' engines that are the worst offenders.

It doesn't help when it is common knowledge that the BRSCC don't have the funds to strip engines, the onus appears to be on another competitor to put a protest in.

We are sure to get ours stripped now, lol.

A sealed duratec (or kent engine for that matter) at he start of the season would go a fair way to stopping any cheating. It would also be a deterrent if all the drivers points were removed from the date of the seals being applied if a dodgy engine was detected.

Mind you, with a Kent, you would forever be breaking seals from the head/sump/carb as they are constantly being removed in a vain attempt to stop oil leaks, replace worn and bent valves etc......

[GraveltrapNigel]

Originally Posted by JNWRF01

surely Sports 2000 is the mandate here. They have new cars with new Duratecs (that they have spec'd themselves not relied on Ford to do it for them). THey also have older Sports 2000 retro fitted with duratec lumps. From what I see at the FF Festival every year - they get massive grids with the new engines giving new life to the class (which was basically dead before).

Nobody can argue that there is a cost difference (modern kent / duratec cars seem to cost the same looking at RCD etc) - undoubtedly duratec engines are cheaper to run - but the most important thing (and why I don;t race kents) is there is parity amongst the engines.

Club duratec based at Brands would get all the national boys looking for extra mileage - with a merry group of keen amateurs (myself included) looking to get the chance to race a national spec car and club prices. Would be seriously good racing..

My thoughts entirely. If we could get a Brands championship going with the Duratec it would encourage some of the national runners to enter some of the rounds too. This is what happened in the eighties. You had the regular C of B runners like Andy Ackerley, Trevor Stiles etc and also some one off entries from the national series drivers. Even Senna entered a C of B round to get some extra mileage.
This all led to an incredibly competitive championship, with many rounds requiring 3 heats and a final. I miss those days!

[kartingdad]

Originally Posted by GraveltrapNigel

My thoughts entirely. If we could get a Brands championship going with the Duratec it would encourage some of the national runners to enter some of the rounds too. This is what happened in the eighties. You had the regular C of B runners like Andy Ackerley, Trevor Stiles etc and also some one off entries from the national series drivers. Even Senna entered a C of B round to get some extra mileage.
This all led to an incredibly competitive championship, with many rounds requiring 3 heats and a final. I miss those days!

The issue here is national duratec runners have ally dampers, ally brakes (I think) ally wheels and slicks.

A mile away from easy integration with a kent series or a kent thats been adapted to use a duratec engine.

What you need is a kent car that is running a duratec engine dumbed down to kent engine output, plus ballast to even up the weight

[driftwood]

sound slike a lot of hard expensive work cheaper to rebuild teh kents!
to level the playing field kents need max weight at 510-515 kg with driver
stops cheater engines lightweight youth jockies lighter cars winning and allows lardy older drivers to race on level footing and stops the btchn anda whining Simples!

[kartingdad]

No need for a 510 weight limit. By the time a lardy driver has got lardy, he's generally anyway and still wont beat youngsters as they have a lot less imagination....

And thats a fact of life

And I would be very happy to sell 2 kent engines at 3k and buy 1 duratec that doesn't need the attentions of an intensive care unit evry week!

[GraveltrapNigel]

Originally Posted by kartingdad

The issue here is national duratec runners have ally dampers, ally brakes (I think) ally wheels and slicks.

A mile away from easy integration with a kent series or a kent thats been adapted to use a duratec engine.

What you need is a kent car that is running a duratec engine dumbed down to kent engine output, plus ballast to even up the weight

I really think it's time to stop clinging on to an outdated Ford Cortina engine. There are many drivers who are completely disinterested in doing FF with the Kent engine, but who would be tempted out of retirement if they thought they could mix it with the best, at a local level.
Drivers like me who have the money but are now too old and too busy to bother doing the national ff series.

[FFmygale]

Originally Posted by GraveltrapNigel

I really think it's time to stop clinging on to an outdated Ford Cortina engine. There are many drivers who are completely disinterested in doing FF with the Kent engine, but who would be tempted out of retirement if they thought they could mix it with the best, at a local level.
Drivers like me who have the money but are now too old and too busy to bother doing the national ff series.

No one should be forced to change - I just feel that IF performance can be equalised between the two engines then there simply should be a CHOICE.

[kartingdad]

Originally Posted by FFmygale

No one should be forced to change - I just feel that IF performance can be equalised between the two engines then there simply should be a CHOICE.

Exactly.

[Flavio Galtieri]

Originally Posted by FFmygale

No one should be forced to change - I just feel that IF performance can be equalised between the two engines then there simply should be a CHOICE.

At what power / torque curve would you suggest equalising the engines?

I'm not against the idea, far from it, but just wonder where you would draw the line?

[kartingdad]

Exactly the same as a kent. I understand one was demo'd at the WHT last year, so it has already been done.

Relatively easy with a reprogrammed ecu and restricted inlet

[GraveltrapNigel]

Originally Posted by FFmygale

No one should be forced to change - I just feel that IF performance can be equalised between the two engines then there simply should be a CHOICE.

Nobody is ever 'forced' to do anything. I'm simply questioning why we're still clinging on to an outdated Cortina engine from the 1970s, other than in historic racing.

Oh well, I think I've already decided not to spend my money on C of B just to be out there with different classes, ancient engines, and no quick drivers to measure my mediocre driving by.

[JEB]

As far as I can see this is a Champion of Brands thread.....

The CoB in 2010 will run for Formula Ford 1600 cars - with Kent engines - at a 420kg weight limit. No class structure - no Zetecs and no Duractecs.

Dates to be advised when known.

James

[driftwood]

dissapointed that you will not initiate a pre 86 pre90 class this will get bums into cars that are languishing in garages locally
although you have had a lot of interest in people asking for info how many actually have cars and how many live within the logical catchment area to race at Brands

[SCOBER11]

Originally Posted by JEB

As far as I can see this is a Champion of Brands thread.....

The CoB in 2010 will run for Formula Ford 1600 cars - with Kent engines - at a 420kg weight limit. No class structure - no Zetecs and no Duractecs.

Dates to be advised when known.

James

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