So just how does modern technology improve old engine BHP

[john ruston]

Normal Bloke has hit nail firmly on the head.

Could be any one of many builders from 20's to 80's with anything from Bentley to Ford stamped on the things but now't like they made in the day!

Must keep someone happy.

What will U2 TC do this week .They are so far away from actual cars that raced in period as to be laughable.

It's pretend racing!

[SAMD]

wellcome normal bloke, with some luck you will be able to contribute more than one post. What you have said is important and is listened to and if enough people say it enough times it will be acted upon.

[Normal Bloke]

Thank you gentlemen. It gives me great confidence to know that I'm not alone in my thinking, especially from two "veterans"....although I'll bet I'm probably older than you both.
Unfortunately, if I gave away the organisation's engine manufacturer speciality, it would be obvious to whom I am specifically alluding. However, I'll bet he's not on his own in persuading the FIA with totally plausible explainations for why they should allow "this-and-that" to be legal but, at the same time, give them the "The Unfair Advantage"*

*with apologies to the late Mark Donohue.

[Andy Turnock]

Went along to Mallory to watch the Super Saloons yesterday,some excellent racing in the sunshine on a superb viewing circuit.High mechanical and damage retirements unfortunately.Spoke to the new owner of the ex Charlie Barter Davrian Imp he had spent £7000 on his imp engine,which i was a little suprised by.He mentioned that he had an imp engine with a twin cam head fitted not something i had ever come across,not that he could use it in the car in the picture without hacking it about to much.Best dice of the day was a V8 Morgan versus a Porsche Boxster,worth a look on You Tube when it's posted.

[VIVA GT]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

The rule is something like "available in the market", which means that you can still allow 105 octane fuel.



That was 1983 when the teams decided that they didn't like TWR for whatever reason. The regs permitted the rockers but the ASN decided after 6 months that it would disqualify the team. It lead to BL pulling out of the BSCC. The following year Andy Rouse won in his ICS backed Rover.

Plus, the ARE Rover was also using the same rockers, but because they'd been polished (and therefore the Swedish manufacturers name wasn't visible), unlike TWR, he was allowed to keep his points!

[zefarelly]

This is not such a dilemma but a personal moral question to myself. How to restore/prepare my Cortina. we've seam welded it and welded in the roll cage. neither were done in period, but having seen the chassis flex and impact damage, I at least feel a little safer, and it should help preserve the bodyshell. I've resisted the temptation to do anything much else as its a 1963 Ford Cortina GT, rare enough in itself now, I don't run a bias pedal box for example. regardless of the latest Red Bull esque developments, even a standard steel panel is expensive, I was offered a bare new drivers door ( steel) for £600 recently!

as for engines, a period correct steel engine is £10k. a veritable bargain by many standards, although still a bit eye watering. Fashionable or otherwise it uses original block and head castings and many other production parts.

140-145 BHP as opposed to the period 120. nothing more than improvements in breathing and cam design. I think 130-135 is typical, but I have been trying for quite some time.

Originally Posted by john ruston

Normal Bloke has hit nail firmly on the head.

Could be any one of many builders from 20's to 80's with anything from Bentley to Ford stamped on the things but now't like they made in the day!

Must keep someone happy.

What will U2 TC do this week .They are so far away from actual cars that raced in period as to be laughable.

It's pretend racing!

[Cliff Ryan]

I've got the same situation with the 289 I'm building having spoken to the engine builder:

Build a proper FIA engine using original type cast parts & standard rockers which will rev to 6500 rpm & give me about 300BHP, a little more than in period due to better flowing.

Or, throw away everything apart from the bare block & head & build a 'legal' FIA engine with steel crank, different rockers & forged unobtainium parts and get about 400bhp which will rev much higher & cost a lot more.

I think the above may be the answer to Al's original question?

I'm going to go for option one, within what I think is not only the letter but the spirit of the regs, but I fear I am going to be on my own & proved wrong.

[Nick JM]

Going back to Al's original thread starter as to how modern innovation increases bhp in classics I suppose the simple answer is that it depends on whose rolling road you use as a test!

I did mean that in a lighthearted way but there does seem to be a substantial discrepancy in read outs!

[simon drabble]

could this be the start of a rennaissance to more period spec cars?

Seems once everyone has proven how far you can push the envelope it becomes in itself pointless so a reversion to how well you can peddle the original spec has more personal value...

I am sure I am not alone in hoping this is the case...

[GORDON STREETER]

Originally Posted by Nick JM

Going back to Al's original thread starter as to how modern innovation increases bhp in classics I suppose the simple answer is that it depends on whose rolling road you use as a test!

I did mean that in a lighthearted way but there does seem to be a substantial discrepancy in read outs!

The Ford Kent engine has been capable of giving 100 bhp + per litre for years from it's non crossflow head, when the crossflow head came in it gave about 10-15 hp more for a similar cc.
However with loads of money spent it is possible to get an extra 10hp but I think that's about it as it's just diminishing returns after that, but what would I know !

[midgetman]

I've had an email come in today that may answer all your questions! Sure to get JR's blood pressure up as it begs the question "should there be technology involved in historic racing cars?"!

Historic Racing Technology, the new classic and vintage motorsport title from the publishers of Race Tech, will be launched at the Silverstone Classic this week.

Following a similar template to its sister publication, the new magazine focuses exclusively on the engineering and technology which goes into racing and restoring historic cars in the modern era. Looking at both traditional methods and 21st Century techniques, it covers the rapidly expanding classic racing industry in an unprecedented level of detail.

Edited by Chris Pickering, Historic Racing Technology features contributions from experienced racers, engineers and journalists, including Nick Mason, Zak Brown and John Simister. It is being distributed as a quarterly, available at selected newsagents, including WH Smiths and Barnes & Noble, or direct from the publishers and sold at various motorsport events.

Historic Racing Technology will make its debut at the Silverstone Classic on 25-27 July, with members of the team on hand to discuss advertising and editorial opportunities.

[zefarelly]

I built the Kennedys 289 which is pretty standard, and about 325, it has forged pistons . . . a cam and not a lot else. in fact I only remodelled the chambers because of the pistons!

100 bhp/litre is easier for smaller fords, almost impossible for 1500 + unless your talking long rod/dry sump etc etc, which is not period correct. 146 is my PB for a wet sump points FiA engine and that was going some. 140 is a much nicer engine in every sense.

Originally Posted by Cliff Ryan

I've got the same situation with the 289 I'm building having spoken to the engine builder:

Build a proper FIA engine using original type cast parts & standard rockers which will rev to 6500 rpm & give me about 300BHP, a little more than in period due to better flowing.

Or, throw away everything apart from the bare block & head & build a 'legal' FIA engine with steel crank, different rockers & forged unobtainium parts and get about 400bhp which will rev much higher & cost a lot more.

I think the above may be the answer to Al's original question?

I'm going to go for option one, within what I think is not only the letter but the spirit of the regs, but I fear I am going to be on my own & proved wrong.

[Normal Bloke]

Originally Posted by simon drabble

could this be the start of a rennaissance to more period spec cars?

Seems once everyone has proven how far you can push the envelope it becomes in itself pointless so a reversion to how well you can peddle the original spec has more personal value...

I am sure I am not alone in hoping this is the case...

Well, in a way I hope you're wrong Simon. I'm now a member of the....."sort of been unable to beat 'em, so I've joined 'em" club! i.e. I've spent all my money but only got so far as the mid-field. Unfortunately to go the next step I have got to fully join the elite club which means spending money I do not have and (and even if I did) the money she does not know about!
And to make matters worse, I sold all my period stuff to pay for the (semi)elite new stuff. So I can't go backwards either
It gets worse......I'm pretty certain that the rich chaps who are ultimately driving all this "progress" never go onto a forum like this and are not even aware there's any fuss going on at all! One weekend I met a lovely chap in his late 50s who had just started historic racing (never raced anything else before) with a jolly nice looking car and he had to politely decline my offer of tea and scones in the camper because he had to fly down to the Isle of Wight immediately to see off his yachts embarking on a round-the-world race! 'Different league, methinks!

[zefarelly]

I can't be unique, in that I'm slowly going off the whole racing thing. I may just keep a small private museum as my pension fund if it doesn't sort itself out, last thing I want to do is *******ise the investment already made.

at least music doesn't cost to do. unless you keep buying vintage guitars !

I can spend £5k+ a year trying and failing to be Jim Clark . . .or go out and pretend to be in the Motown Funk Brothers or the Rolling Stones etc and get paid for it and some respect.

[Cliff Ryan]

Originally Posted by zefarelly

I built the Kennedys 289 which is pretty standard, and about 325, it has forged pistons . . . a cam and not a lot else. in fact I only remodelled the chambers because of the pistons!.

Interesting Zef, so what I've been told is about right as I have a new set of cast pistons at the moment, which I'm told will limit the revs due to their weight, so no need to go with hardened rockers?

Did you go for the hardened rockers with the forged pistons?

Thanks,

Cliff

[Heightswitch]

Originally Posted by Cliff Ryan

Interesting Zef, so what I've been told is about right as I have a new set of cast pistons at the moment, which I'm told will limit the revs due to their weight, so no need to go with hardened rockers?

Did you go for the hardened rockers with the forged pistons?

Thanks,

Cliff

I would say thats about right..My engine is on a 30 thou crank, 30 thou pistons (cast) running a 68 hi po head in std trim with no porting, running a crane 270H cam and comp cams roler tip rockers, Holley 550 vac sec with centre hung floats on weiend stealth intake, cloys tru roller chain and a torkey set of snakes.. I am reckoning at about 285 - 290 flywheel hp tops…It still more than fast enough for me…

Not everyone is from the elite jet set

Its all about fun and there hopefully will be others with similar cars who have been fettled by the owner.



Self fettling…maybe there should be a self fettling class

N.

[john ruston]

Let's hope for the sake of Historic Racing this new magazine goes tits up and quickly!

[Cliff Ryan]

to both posts above

[Colin McKay]

Originally Posted by zefarelly

. . .or go out and pretend to be in the Motown Funk Brothers or the Rolling Stones etc and get paid for it and some respect.

Did you go for the hardened rockers with the forged pistons?

Reckon he went for the hardened rockers

Let's hope for the sake of Historic Racing this new magazine goes tits up and quickly!

I can't see many top preppers queuing up to share their innermost with us hoi polloi. Be interesting to see if they can keep it going beyond the first year.

[Paul D]

Originally Posted by Heightswitch

Self fettling…maybe there should be a self fettling class

I think you could be onto something there - I'd be in!

Now we've just got to decide how to define self-fettling, and how to enforce it...

[Heightswitch]

Originally Posted by Paul D

I think you could be onto something there - I'd be in!

Now we've just got to decide how to define self-fettling, and how to enforce it...

[Nick JM]

Originally Posted by zefarelly

I can spend £5k+ a year trying and failing to be Jim Clark . . .or go out and pretend to be in the Motown Funk Brothers or the Rolling Stones etc and get paid for it and some respect.

Can't quite see where you are coming from Joe. We can't all be Jim Clark but at least we can have a bloody good time pretending. Can't we? We can't all be Mick Jagger either but if we can have a bit of fun trying and maybe even scratch a living it can't be all bad

[john ruston]

Don't worry Joe some of us understand your line of reasoning!

Not only do we understand but totally agree with you.

We now have an industry built around the concept of nearly Historic Racing that thinks the whole idea is to improve the cars so in fact they are now't like the originals.

Why can't they all go off and race moderns instead of messing up what used to be a good hobby .

Forgot,when most of these superstars go and play in the big pond they are found wanting.

Off to Sillystone this weekend to see what a 2014 Cortina does and can a C Type break the outright lap record!

It's nonsense.

[terence]

The biggest problem for "Historic"racing now is could it ever be returned to how it was/should be? Would the drivers be happy pedalling a car with 25 to 50 per cent less power? Very few I think would be happy after setting thier previous lap rec I records!
OK, so improvements can be found with driving itself, getting oneself completely 'in touch'with ones car, but where to once that unison has been achieved? Start looking for ways to make the car faster.
Back to Als original question, computers have been responsible in many ways-optimal cam designs, combustion chamber shape and so on help enormously.Big power from a 289? Quad fifties is the only way to go (if they were homologated in period of course).

[john ruston]

Terence ,( the new German ) rather than the TB of this parish.

So how do you solve the riddle of making Historic Racing, Historic?

Is it the view of most people that cars should be very loosely similar to those that raced in far off days rather than more of less the same?

I suppose a sport with more attachment to the past than most,golf ,changes courses to allow for the modern equipment to be used.A nonsense as the best players will win irrespective of any new vogue invented by the manufacturers.Another waste of effort.

Same thing with old cars ,on a level playing field the best drivers will win.

So any money spent messing with cars is a wasteof time and money.

Interesting conumberum.