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Old 30 Mar 2018, 02:39 (Ref:3811841)   #51
V8 Fireworks
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Originally Posted by peckstar View Post
because BTCC are modified production cars,
And isn't that the whole point of a touring car as opposed to a sports sedan?

Where the latter, just like a Supercar, resembles the original car in external shape only and nothing else.

Much better to have an actual Ford Falcon made into a racing car.

Last edited by V8 Fireworks; 30 Mar 2018 at 02:45.
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Old 30 Mar 2018, 03:59 (Ref:3811847)   #52
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Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks View Post
Much better to have an actual Ford Falcon made into a racing car.
Yes but you seem to ignore the fact that using production shells:

a) Makes the sport MUCH less safe - witness deaths, broken bones and serious burns because of limitations in safety with road car shells
b) Makes the sport more expensive because the shells are more difficult to repair than bespoke modular chassis, which defrays the more expensive up-front cost
c) Makes NO difference to the racing because the Supercars so a VERY good job of looking like the road vehicles, unlike NASCAR or the Brazilian cars.
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Old 30 Mar 2018, 04:25 (Ref:3811848)   #53
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Yes but you seem to ignore the fact that using production shells:

a) Makes the sport MUCH less safe - witness deaths, broken bones and serious burns because of limitations in safety with road car shells
b) Makes the sport more expensive because the shells are more difficult to repair than bespoke modular chassis, which defrays the more expensive up-front cost
c) Makes NO difference to the racing because the Supercars so a VERY good job of looking like the road vehicles, unlike NASCAR or the Brazilian cars.
BTCC can be built from road going shells, GT3 cars too

Not to mention Improved Production which probably has a race somewhere in Australia every weekend, no complaints from safety from those competitors?

Just because it looks a little like a road going car, doesn't mean it should be called a touring car
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Old 30 Mar 2018, 07:25 (Ref:3811858)   #54
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Although aiming to be cheaper, didn't costs go up with COTF?
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Old 30 Mar 2018, 08:29 (Ref:3811862)   #55
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Initially, the costs were high.

Chassis jigs needed to be bought, or changed. There was the costs associated in moving over to the transaxle as well.
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Old 30 Mar 2018, 10:50 (Ref:3811900)   #56
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Originally Posted by Mixer View Post
Yes but you seem to ignore the fact that using production shells:

a) Makes the sport MUCH less safe - witness deaths, broken bones and serious burns because of limitations in safety with road car shells
b) Makes the sport more expensive because the shells are more difficult to repair than bespoke modular chassis, which defrays the more expensive up-front cost
c) Makes NO difference to the racing because the Supercars so a VERY good job of looking like the road vehicles, unlike NASCAR or the Brazilian cars.
A and B are simply not true. (not for something like Supercars, at least)

A: Any roadgoing vehicle can be made just as safe as a purpose built racecar - you merely need to properly reinforce the driver's compartment(IE, rollcage) and, depending on the speed and the base car, add some extra energy-absorbing component in certain areas.

B: A roadcar to racecar conversion for a series like Supercars would NOT be using the same body panels as the road car - just ones that look the same and connect to the same spots. They would be lighter than the roadgoing counterparts due to a desire to keep weight down, and if exotic materials are banned this would actually make the panels CHEAPER than the roadgoing versions. The main chassis would be no more difficult to repair than a tube-frame unit.

The safety conversions would be more likely to cause a cost problem, but even then for something like Supercars I doubt you'd see much of a difference.

C is just an opinion which I have no comment on.
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Old 30 Mar 2018, 11:45 (Ref:3811908)   #57
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A and B are simply not true. (not for something like Supercars, at least)

A: Any roadgoing vehicle can be made just as safe as a purpose built racecar - you merely need to properly reinforce the driver's compartment(IE, rollcage) and, depending on the speed and the base car, add some extra energy-absorbing component in certain areas.
Sorry, you are competely wrong.

You cannot make a roadcar to the same strength & safety as a bespoke car.
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Old 30 Mar 2018, 18:10 (Ref:3811983)   #58
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Sorry, you are competely wrong.

You cannot make a roadcar to the same strength & safety as a bespoke car.
When you're looking at something on the speed of Supercars you can. It takes a lot of work, but it can, and frequently IS, done. And in fact, it's already being done - GT3 cars are built from the roadcar chassis, go just about as fast as Supercars, and are plenty safe and strong.

Is it EASY to do it? NO - anyone who claims it to be an easy thing to do is an idiot. But that does not mean it is impossible, or more expensive.

It all depends on what you're asking of the car. If we wanted DTM speeds, for example, that'd be another case entirely. But we aren't, we're talking Supercars, which run speeds on par with what it's already been proven road-based cars can safely do.
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Old 31 Mar 2018, 14:09 (Ref:3812124)   #59
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When you're looking at something on the speed of Supercars you can. It takes a lot of work, but it can, and frequently IS, done. And in fact, it's already being done - GT3 cars are built from the roadcar chassis, go just about as fast as Supercars, and are plenty safe and strong.
Comparing Porsches and Ferraris to Commodores and Falcons is a horseshit comparison.
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Old 31 Mar 2018, 19:24 (Ref:3812162)   #60
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Comparing Porsches and Ferraris to Commodores and Falcons is a horseshit comparison.
No it's not. We're still talking about racecars that are need to be able take hits at speeds their roadgoing counterparts can't.

Contrary to popular belief, the driver of a Ferrari road car isn't any more likely to survive a 100+ MPH crash than the driver of any other "normal" road car at such a speed.
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Old 31 Mar 2018, 22:17 (Ref:3812178)   #61
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Originally Posted by Mixer View Post
Yes but you seem to ignore the fact that using production shells:

a) Makes the sport MUCH less safe - witness deaths, broken bones and serious burns because of limitations in safety with road car shells
b) Makes the sport more expensive because the shells are more difficult to repair than bespoke modular chassis, which defrays the more expensive up-front cost
c) Makes NO difference to the racing because the Supercars so a VERY good job of looking like the road vehicles, unlike NASCAR or the Brazilian cars.
So GTE/GT3/GT4 cars are unsafe?
You are brainwashed by SC propaganda.
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Old 31 Mar 2018, 22:25 (Ref:3812180)   #62
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So GTE/GT3/GT4 cars are unsafe?
You are brainwashed by SC propaganda.
Agreed.
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Old 1 Apr 2018, 01:11 (Ref:3812190)   #63
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So GTE/GT3/GT4 cars are unsafe?

You are brainwashed by SC propaganda.

I gotta agree too

There have more then a few big crashes involving GT cars in recent years and many drivers have walked away from crashes they wouldn’t have a decade or so ago given the increasing speeds of GT cars year by year.
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Old 1 Apr 2018, 01:45 (Ref:3812194)   #64
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Contrary to popular belief, the driver of a Ferrari road car isn't any more likely to survive a 100+ MPH crash than the driver of any other "normal" road car at such a speed.
Id say the Ferrari driver actually has less chance of surviving
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Old 1 Apr 2018, 05:19 (Ref:3812196)   #65
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When you're looking at something on the speed of Supercars you can. It takes a lot of work, but it can, and frequently IS, done. And in fact, it's already being done - GT3 cars are built from the roadcar chassis, go just about as fast as Supercars, and are plenty safe and strong.

Is it EASY to do it? NO - anyone who claims it to be an easy thing to do is an idiot. But that does not mean it is impossible, or more expensive.

It all depends on what you're asking of the car. If we wanted DTM speeds, for example, that'd be another case entirely. But we aren't, we're talking Supercars, which run speeds on par with what it's already been proven road-based cars can safely do.
Part of the question that needs to be looked at in relation to GT3 is the cost of the cars and also repair costs. Cost of the cars is much higher than a Supercar but I honestly couldn't give you comparison repair cost estimates.

It's hard to compare the performance of DTM & Supercars as I don't think they've ever run on the same track. DTM cars have less power but are lighter and have a lot more aero. I suspect that there wouldn't be a great deal of difference, depending on the track they are both running at. I've seen an article showing a lap time 1.5 seconds quicker than a GT3 in a DTM car (both BMWs).

In reality, there's probably not a huge range of lap time difference between a GT3, DTM car and Supercar, with much of the variable in time difference being down to the nature of the track at which testing is taking place.
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Old 1 Apr 2018, 10:51 (Ref:3812256)   #66
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Part of the question that needs to be looked at in relation to GT3 is the cost of the cars and also repair costs. Cost of the cars is much higher than a Supercar but I honestly couldn't give you comparison repair cost estimates.

It's hard to compare the performance of DTM & Supercars as I don't think they've ever run on the same track. DTM cars have less power but are lighter and have a lot more aero. I suspect that there wouldn't be a great deal of difference, depending on the track they are both running at. I've seen an article showing a lap time 1.5 seconds quicker than a GT3 in a DTM car (both BMWs).

In reality, there's probably not a huge range of lap time difference between a GT3, DTM car and Supercar, with much of the variable in time difference being down to the nature of the track at which testing is taking place.
I'm not trying to compare costs to repair Supercars vs DTM or GT3, I'm making a point of the costs of a Supercars-level series using converted road cars instead of tube frame racecars. I'm only using GT3 and DTM for points of comparison on how far things could safely be taken before costs were prohibitive.

GT3 is very expensive in part because the body panels are made of carbon fiber - not something that enters into the equation for a roadcar-derived Supercars concept. DTM cars are so insanely quick that to make them actually be production-based while meeting both speed and safety needs would actually make them MORE expensive than the purpose-built carbon tub design they use.

The closest we've ever come to DTM level performance from a production chassis car was pre-2012 GT500, and even then they only required use of the original unibody - and not even the ENTIRE unibody, just the portion that encompassed the driver's compartment. Everything else was completely custom. Still a very different beast from what we're talking here.
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Old 1 Apr 2018, 11:03 (Ref:3812261)   #67
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And isn't that the whole point of a touring car as opposed to a sports sedan?

Where the latter, just like a Supercar, resembles the original car in external shape only and nothing else.
A sports sedan is a touring car, you are confusing road car with touring car, they are different

Production cars are road cars
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Old 1 Apr 2018, 11:15 (Ref:3812263)   #68
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So GTE/GT3/GT4 cars are unsafe?
You are brainwashed by SC propaganda.
the have been two deaths in Gt3 in the last 5 years.

None in a supercar for over 10

In australia last year there were multiple Gt3 incidents that caused people to miss significant periods of time with injuries. In supercars there were none.
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Old 1 Apr 2018, 11:52 (Ref:3812270)   #69
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the have been two deaths in Gt3 in the last 5 years.

None in a supercar for over 10

In australia last year there were multiple Gt3 incidents that caused people to miss significant periods of time with injuries. In supercars there were none.
The impression I get and possibly one explanation for that is that GT3 cars seem to be more rigidly constructed and allow for less energy absorption by the car vs the construction of a Supercar, with the result being that although the safety cells of a GT car are very good and the risk of penetration very small, there's often more impact forces on the driver in an accident than a supercar. That's where circuit safety plays a big role and most European circuits seems to have more runoff and gravel traps than in a lot of circuits they visit in Aus which may contribute to injury.
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Old 1 Apr 2018, 12:13 (Ref:3812275)   #70
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the have been two deaths in Gt3 in the last 5 years.

None in a supercar for over 10

In australia last year there were multiple Gt3 incidents that caused people to miss significant periods of time with injuries. In supercars there were none.
There is a GT3 race somewhere in the world 52 weekends a year justabout, only 16 weekends a year for the Supercars, when you race more the odds are higher
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Old 1 Apr 2018, 12:18 (Ref:3812279)   #71
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There is a GT3 race somewhere in the world 52 weekends a year justabout, only 16 weekends a year for the Supercars, when you race more the odds are higher
so they should be safer then.

But when we compare 2017 Aust Gt to Supercars they are not. and they race much less in Aust GT
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Old 1 Apr 2018, 12:47 (Ref:3812288)   #72
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the have been two deaths in Gt3 in the last 5 years.
Can you name them? Only GT racing deaths I can think of in the last 5 years are Allan Simonsen (in an Aston GTE car, not a GT3 and in a freak accident that could have happened in just about any car) and that poor Italian guy in Lambo Supertrofeo (which isn't a GT3 car either).

That being said: there are different levels of safety in GT3, the safest car is probably the Mercedes with their carbon-fibre tub-within-the-tub concept, so ideally, something like that could be adopted for a production-based Supercar.
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Old 1 Apr 2018, 12:48 (Ref:3812289)   #73
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A sports sedan is a touring car,
lol
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Old 1 Apr 2018, 13:10 (Ref:3812293)   #74
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Can you name them? Only GT racing deaths I can think of in the last 5 years are Allan Simonsen (in an Aston GTE car, not a GT3 and in a freak accident that could have happened in just about any car) and that poor Italian guy in Lambo Supertrofeo (which isn't a GT3 car either).

That being said: there are different levels of safety in GT3, the safest car is probably the Mercedes with their carbon-fibre tub-within-the-tub concept, so ideally, something like that could be adopted for a production-based Supercar.
I'm wondering when Supercars will adopt the trapdoor in the roofskin.
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Old 1 Apr 2018, 20:48 (Ref:3812374)   #75
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the have been two deaths in Gt3 in the last 5 years.
I have been scouring the internet and can find no reference to ANY GT3 deaths in the past 5 years.

In point of fact, I cannot find ANY record of a driver death in a GT3 category race. So unless you can produce something I've been unable to find, your claim is a complete lie.
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