Schumacher wasnt as bad as you all thought?

[Bononi]

I still haven't got the point of this thread.


He is in Top ten of all time greatest, no doubt about it, what else ?

[chillibowl]

this thread should be about the 2004 French GP.

stuck in second and in a car potentially slower than the Renault, the brain trust at Ferrari asked MS to do work completely outside of the box...switch to a four stop race and drive like mad.

naturally he accomplished this through a combination of fast laps, efficient pit stops, and blindingly quick in and out laps.

probably not a race anyone even thinks of anymore but after watching a 4 pit stop victory i couldnt help but think back.

Alsono, and the other top contenders, drove solid races yesterday but they all did so without the necessity of having to do something great.

Alonso stopped 4 times and never once had to put in a great in or out lap and why should he have? his in laps were against cars on equally old tires which themselves were rapidly approaching the same cliff he just under cut by coming in one lap earlier. then his out lap was on a tire designed to be around a seconds a lap faster.

where is the skill in that? the driver simply didnt have to do much to be great so basically just not binning it was the standard for greatness yesterday.

hard to compare different eras but i would like to think that a young Schumi would have shown everyone just how much more race aptitude he had (was capable of) if he was in yesterdays race.

[Gingers4Justice]

Grrrrr, why do I like a sport in which it's almost impossible to compare the men who partake in it.

We'll never ever solve anything on these threads.

But they'll never die.

[chunder]

Lol Massa fan, Schuey won a wet arce in a car with a very basic form on traction control, hardly a mighty win, but a very good one

You have to agree that most of the time at Ferrari he was in the dominant car, that never broke down and on tyres developed fro him and him alone with thousands of miles testing!

I am not saying Schuey wasn't great, for me (and most experts it has to be said) he is not up there with the true greats like Clark, Stewart, Prost, Lauda etc.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by Bononi

I still haven't got the point of this thread.


He is in Top ten of all time greatest, no doubt about it, what else ?

Nor me. We've been here before, surely?

Originally Posted by Gingers4Justice

Grrrrr, why do I like a sport in which it's almost impossible to compare the men who partake in it.

We'll never ever solve anything on these threads.

I vote we should ask Alan. He'd probably go for Michel Lambert. But then again, he was only France's second-best racing driver.......


And you can blame Ginger's desperate taste in Avatars for that one......

[migliacars]

Come back Schumacher, we all now know you were and still are the best. ever.

[Bononi]

Originally Posted by migliacars

Come back Schumacher, we all now know you were and still are the best. ever.

Seriously ?

[Marbot]

I wouldn't want him to come back, but he is a seven time world champion and that's not "bad", not bad at all.

[Razzzor]

Just because Vettel doesn't get the 'best driver of the year' mantle for his title winning years, (although I'd disagree with 2011 he was the best that year... Hamilton and Alonso did nothing special)... doesn't make him any less proven, especially when it's Alonso that's getting driver of the year.

You can go back many years and much of the time I bet the best driver of the year wasn't the title winner. Actually, I'mma make a list!

First name is the winner, second who is perhaps DOTY (only rough though, some of these might be wrong - I seemed to give it to MS a lot).

2012 Vettel - Alonso
2011 Vettel - Vettel
2010 Vettel - Alonso?
2009 Button - er... No standouts actually. Def not Button anyway.
2008 Hamilton - Kubica
2007 Raikkonen - Hamilton? (considering it was rookie season)
2006 Alonso - Alonso
2005 Alonso - Alonso
2004 Schumacher - Schumacher
2003 Schumacher - Raikkonen
2002 Schumacher - Schumacher
2001 Schumacher - Schumacher
2000 Schumacher - Schumacher
1999 Hakkinen - Frentzen
1998 Hakkinen - Hakkinen or Schumacher
1997 Villeneuve - Schumacher
1996 Hill - Schumacher
1995 Schumacher - Schumacher
1994 Schumacher - Schumacher

So 9/19 times was the champion also the most deserving - and it was mostly Schumacher 6 of those times.

So my point is, just because Alonso drove best in 2010 and 2012, doesn't mean Vettel isn't any less worthy.

He's also been in slower cars. He well and truly beat Coulthard and Webber in his Toro Rosso vs Red Bull in 2008, in a rookie season and put Bourdais to shame.

He took the fight to the dominant Brawn in 2009 and had 4 more retirements than Button, but was still only 11 points behind at the end.

Fangio was always in the best car. Does that mean he's unproven?

[Bononi]

Good points...

[RF_Racer]

Originally Posted by Massa_number1

I really have disagree with alot of points you made in your post, To say Schumacher never won in a poor car is laughable he won 3 races in the 96 Ferrari prompting Irvine to say how Schumacher won in that car is a miracle (Id trust Irivines judgement over yours since he was a professional driver after all) He also made a fight of the 1998 season against a car that lapped everyone in the whole field in the first race in Australia EXCEPT Schumacher!

At the time I thought how he took the title down to the last race with amazing wins in Hungary for example was nothing short of unbelievable.Look at spain 94 I think it was? He drove 30 laps in 5th gear matching the leading cars pace almost and people claim he wasnt a special driver?

Schumacer at 40 wasnt on the same level as Hamilton,Alonso,Vettel,Roseberg, but he stayed in touch with them securing a pole position and a podium and while that doesnt live up to what was expected if you take a step back you have to admire the fact at 41-43 yrs old he was able to compete still.I havent even bothered mentioning his early career finishing 3rd in the World Championship ahead of Senna in 1992 and only behind a car that was unbeatable in his second season.You cannot deny he was a supreme talent and easily in the top 10 of the greatest F1 drivers of all time

These people are just haters because Schumacher beat everyone, including good drivers in a Newey designed car!

[Massa_number1]

Originally Posted by chunder

Lol Massa fan, Schuey won a wet arce in a car with a very basic form on traction control, hardly a mighty win, but a very good one
.

he also lost 2 cyclinders in the engine that race as well, I dont know how good your memory is but if you watch that race back the way the Ferrari was sliding about on the track and him fighting the rear end on corner exits hardly has the look of basic traction control going on?

If you dont think he is as good as the drivers you mentioned then thats all fine with me its your opinion and your entitled to it of course, the point of the thread is Schum was right to be questioned about his ability when he came back but the fact everyone was relating it too him at 28 and questioning how good he was in his first career was nothing short of stupid really

[RF_Racer]

Originally Posted by chunder

I guess Schumachers issue has always been an unfortunate one, at Benetton the team were cheats as was he at times

And at Ferrari especially in the later years he had a gigantic car and tyre advantage a lot of the time, and anytime anyone came along to upset that be it Hakkinen or Alonso, they were a match. HIs time for me was late 90's turning the team around, battering Irvine and the like in the same car. And just after that his dominance, you watched him drive then and could visually a man on another level.

No doubt MS is one of the best ever, but his achievements are sadly based on circumstance rather than his ability.

He never won much in a poor car, never drove one really apart from this Mercedes where he was not off the pace.

I am sure he answered a lot of questions when he came back and is so similar to Rossi, still a great, never really won against anyone good much, and was soundly beaten when the level incrased in different more equal cars/bikes.

I have always rated Nico and it doesn't surprise me that he is doing well against Lewis, but I think Spain was a one off, they have been evenly matched up to now. And people seem to forget how quick Lewis was against Fernando in 07 and how much mutual respect after anger they have for each other now.

What would you call his 3 wins in 96? or Taking the challange to the mighty Mclarens in 98? Or dragging the Benetton B192 to 3rd in the Championship over the dominant Williams FW14's? Not mentioning he beat Senna many times that year in his first full season.

As a 7 times WC I would say he is the greatest and most complete driver ever and thats not to discredit past WC's but he ranks at the very top. Dominant in the rain, mentally he was stong, focussed, rarely made mistakes, ruthless on track, will fight to the last lap, can maintain qualy pace for several laps.. Remember how he hauled in Jean Alesi in the European GP in 95?

Good video.. Ron Dennis chasing Schumacher.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wYI6PFNDFrg

[F1Pete]

Chilli, I remember that 4 pitstop race that MS did. He would come flying into the pitlane and lock up the tires right up to the speed limit line. He would always do that...brake hard to the pit line. I see no evidence of that today. Driver's just come cruising into the pitlane at the same speed over the line already at the speed limit.

[Beryl]

Originally Posted by Razzzor

It didn't help that Schumacher never had a really quick teammate - Irvine and Barrichello are no better than Massa. Coulthard no better than Webber.

2008 Massa maybe, but you really are doing a discervice to Barrichello, and to a lesser extent Irvine, with that comment. You won't stop to think that maybe it was Schumacher that was making Barrichello look worse than he was? I reckon Rubens was just as fast as Hakkinen and Raikkonen, if not faster. Schumacher was just on another level and had an extra few tenths nobody else on the grid had.

[beau1]

Originally Posted by Beryl

2008 Massa maybe, but you really are doing a discervice to Barrichello, and to a lesser extent Irvine, with that comment. You won't stop to think that maybe it was Schumacher that was making Barrichello look worse than he was? I reckon Rubens was just as fast as Hakkinen and Raikkonen, if not faster. Schumacher was just on another level and had an extra few tenths nobody else on the grid had.

I don't think Rubens was that fast really. The Ferrari during certain years was just an extremely quick car but Schumacher was by far the class of the field at the same time.

2005 and 2009 showed that Rubens wasn't all that great really. I'd put him nowhere near Raikkonen or Hakkinen; more like the level of a current day Webber, Rosberg or Massa. Definitely second or upper-third tier. After all, he did get beaten fairly badly by Button and most of us wouldn't rank Button alongside Hakkinen or Raikkonen.

[chunder]

Somebody earlier said ruthless on track

And that is one of the main reasons to a real racer he will never be up there.

Because he was prepared like Senna and Vettel it seems, to crash rather than let people past. He had more than enough speed to avoid this at all, yet even in his Merc he played the same tricks and made himself look a chump.

It might mean you win things, but those with a sporting reason and a sporting sense of fair play it just means they will always be behind many others I am afraid.

And as for the comment about taking it to the Williams lol, didnt he get beat by both! And one a rookie! Oh dear it wasnt that good!

[Beryl]

Originally Posted by beau1

2005 and 2009 showed that Rubens wasn't all that great really. I'd put him nowhere near Raikkonen or Hakkinen; more like the level of a current day Webber, Rosberg or Massa. Definitely second or upper-third tier. After all, he did get beaten fairly badly by Button and most of us wouldn't rank Button alongside Hakkinen or Raikkonen.

2005 was a bad year for Rubens (I'd say the start of his decline). In 2009 is the year when Rubens started the season on Hitco brakes, but after he switched back to the Brembos mid-season he won two races (Button won 0 races in the second half of the season) and generally outperformed Button. Over the season (and their entire time as teammates) Rubens outqualified Button, despite being past his best and Button presumably being in his prime. I wouldn't say he was beaten "fairly badly" at all.

And you know, Rubens was closer to the pace of MS than Massa was, and Massa beat Raikkonen (though they were quite even in terms of pace) when they were teammates. What is the reasoning for Kimi being faster than Rubens? Because he beat Coulthard? (Who hasn't?) Because he is beating Grosjean?

I'm not convinced with Hakkinen either. He never really distanced himself completely from Coulthard, who was often his match, and he struggled to win his titles, one in a dominant McLaren and the other from Eddie Irvine. Good driver, no doubt, but I struggle to see an equal of MSC there.

Originally Posted by chunder

Because he was prepared like Senna and Vettel it seems, to crash rather than let people past. He had more than enough speed to avoid this at all, yet even in his Merc he played the same tricks and made himself look a chump.

It might mean you win things, but those with a sporting reason and a sporting sense of fair play it just means they will always be behind many others I am afraid.

So now it seems racers become "great drivers" because of their manners, not their abilities? I'm not a fan of Schumacher either, but I'm not blind, he is clearly one of the 5 greatest ever in ability/accomplishment, at the least.

[FAS33]

Schumacher is the best ever, just like valentino rossi, loeb in their series...I wonder what people on here would be saying if he was british..

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by FAS33

Schumacher is the best ever, just like valentino rossi, loeb in their series...I wonder what people on here would be saying if he was british..

I still wouldn't agree.....

[garcon]

I dread to think what a fuss there would have been if he was an Aussie.

[chunder]

Strange that some people think nationality comes into it in any way!

Are Brits rascist or something!

It matters not to me if he was Ethiopian or from Lebanon!

He was still a ruthless competitor. Some people think that makes guys like him Senna and Vettel great.

Others like me think that just makes him likely to do the dirty on his rivals

And that is a big difference, can't you people just see that point?

Doesnt change the stats or the results, just makes some fans not rate him in the same way!

[davyboy]

Based on facts, Schumacher is the greatest F1 driver there's ever been. Based on opinion, it could be a multitude of other people.

Was he ruthless ? Yes. But he dominated an era when much of the danger had been eliminated from the sport... and ruthlessness became a pre-requisite to success.

Was ruthlessness the reason he was so successful ? No. While his controversial incidents often come to the fore when people are reminiscing Schumacher racing, he had a tiny number of them over the 20 or so years he dominated the sport. What we often forget was the relentless monotony of Schumacher poles and victories in all sorts of conditions, in good cars and bad cars, when his equipment was sick or well.

On his return to racing with Mercedes Benz he was a shadow of his pre-retirement self, yet he was almost on par with Rosberg. As we're discovering now, Rosberg is very good... arguably one of the more underrated F1 drivers of recent years.

Can we join the dots up and say that a below par Schumacher is about the equivalent of Rosberg who is about the equivalent of Hamilton... who is almost the equivalent of Alonso... which would then put a Schumacher in his prime head and shoulders above the lot of them ? Possibly, but that would involve a lot of inference and a heavy helping of opinion as well. The great thing is that we'll never know and it'll give us plenty to debate for the years to come on here

[Bononi]

Davyboy, I was missing you in this thread !

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by Bononi

Davyboy, I was missing you in this thread !

Miss no longer