[WEC] LMP Future Regulations (was Le Mans EVO rules - now hypercar rules)

[joeb]

Originally Posted by Napolis

Here's what they'll be racing.
https://www.instagram.com/p/CJ_eo_XL...d=ajobs0yylswn

Coming together nicely! Look forward to seeing the body panels go on!

[Spyderman]

I have been entertaining myself by listening to these Podacsts from the "Engineering the Greats" series (Gordon Murray, John Barnard, Frank Dernie, Patrick Head, Adrian Newey) on Motorsport Magazine. I thoroughly enjoyed them. Most entertaining.
The reason I'm posting this here is due to their takes on regulations. I know what is discussed are F1 regulations, but the principles they talk about apply to Sportscar racing too.
https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/a...tegory/podcast

Enjoy!

[chernaudi]

I referenced this in the Toyota thread, but anyone think that the weight increase and single primary body kit rules for LMH may be the ACO making a mea culpa over criticism over the dorsal fins and the bulbous front fenders/wheel arches that appeared on the LM aero kits in LMP1 especially?

After all, heavier cars are harder to flip over given their increased mass, and one body kit that might have to be dirtied up for the sprint races means that aside from minor changes, you have to make the one kit work to some degree everywhere, not just LM.

[Adam43]

Mea culpa! I don’t think they consider it an error as their priority was safety not aesthetics.

The additional weight may or may not be in their thoughts, but again I don’t think it is the priority. That is the performance level and how the class came about.

[chernaudi]

Up until now, the ACO's attempts to get the top class back even close to lapping at 3:30 or slower around Le Mans failed, each one of them.

2009 wing span reduction and air restrictor adjustments, failed. In '09 the cars were faster than in 2007 (first time 3:30 was broken in a race) and '10 gave us the distance record and fastest Le Mans.

2011 engine downsizing, failed. Cars were lapping as fast or faster than 2009. And don't get started on the 2014-20 regs that produced the fastest LMP1 cars ever.

The fact that the fin is still there (the ACO adopted it because of other failed attempts to slow the cars down/keep them from flipping over in high speed spins) shows that the ACO have faith in it. The fact that it's smaller means that either the ACO are hoping that adding 200kg to the top class minimum weight will help keep the cars on the ground by reducing max cornering speeds or just that something heavier will take more force to be lifted, or they're taking advantage of that to address fan criticism (ie, chicken or egg, intent or side-effect).

The one aero kit having to be somewhat universal also IMO for sure--directly or indirectly--addresses the appearance factor even more. At least the GR010 doesn't have the bulbous front fenders that a lot of LM aero kits adopted. nor the Lister Storm LMP type front fenders that the early TS040 had.

But what does this mean for performance? Toyota are claiming that around Le Mans (I read this either from Sportscar 365 or a Road and Track online article) the GR010 should be, on their estimates, be about 10 seconds a lap slower. If we're talking compared to race trim this year, that's close to the ACO's long desired/obsessed over 3:30. If we're talking qualifying--and I also tend to think that the newer cars can lap closer to their qualifying times in race trim due to no lift and coast--we're talking current LMP2 pace, which that's well above 3:30 even, especially with pro drivers in the cars.

[canaglia]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Up until now, the ACO's attempts to get the top class back even close to lapping at 3:30 or slower around Le Mans failed, each one of them.

2009 wing span reduction and air restrictor adjustments, failed. In '09 the cars were faster than in 2007 (first time 3:30 was broken in a race) and '10 gave us the distance record and fastest Le Mans.

2011 engine downsizing, failed. Cars were lapping as fast or faster than 2009. And don't get started on the 2014-20 regs that produced the fastest LMP1 cars ever.

The fact that the fin is still there (the ACO adopted it because of other failed attempts to slow the cars down/keep them from flipping over in high speed spins) shows that the ACO have faith in it. The fact that it's smaller means that either the ACO are hoping that adding 200kg to the top class minimum weight will help keep the cars on the ground by reducing max cornering speeds or just that something heavier will take more force to be lifted, or they're taking advantage of that to address fan criticism (ie, chicken or egg, intent or side-effect).

The one aero kit having to be somewhat universal also IMO for sure--directly or indirectly--addresses the appearance factor even more. At least the GR010 doesn't have the bulbous front fenders that a lot of LM aero kits adopted. nor the Lister Storm LMP type front fenders that the early TS040 had.

But what does this mean for performance? Toyota are claiming that around Le Mans (I read this either from Sportscar 365 or a Road and Track online article) the GR010 should be, on their estimates, be about 10 seconds a lap slower. If we're talking compared to race trim this year, that's close to the ACO's long desired/obsessed over 3:30. If we're talking qualifying--and I also tend to think that the newer cars can lap closer to their qualifying times in race trim due to no lift and coast--we're talking current LMP2 pace, which that's well above 3:30 even, especially with pro drivers in the cars.

According to lmp2 portimao test, the oreca 07 restricted at 560hp was only 1 second slower than an unrestricted one. Just making a simple proportion, at le mans, fastest 2021 lmp2 should be in a range of 3.28-3.30. I think we should expect 3.25-3.27 for lmdh, basically 2020 lmp2 top performances.
I wonder how fast will be lmh in a track like silverstone where lmp2 should have a consistent advantage being lighter and having an overall better aero.

[Napolis]

Originally Posted by canaglia

According to lmp2 portimao test, the oreca 07 restricted at 560hp was only 1 second slower than an unrestricted one. Just making a simple proportion, at le mans, fastest 2021 lmp2 should be in a range of 3.28-3.30. I think we should expect 3.25-3.27 for lmdh, basically 2020 lmp2 top performances.
I wonder how fast will be lmh in a track like silverstone where lmp2 should have a consistent advantage being lighter and having an overall better aero.

Note exact weight of new Toyota Hybrid LMH.

[chernaudi]

Of course, if we knew what laptimes were at Paul Ricard and Algarve between the TS050 vs the GR010, we could probably know what to expect. Not that Toyota are exactly forthcoming with that information...

Also, aren't the LMP2s also carrying ballast compared to 2020 specs? Could the ACO maybe be (maybe not intentionally) engineering ALMS 2007-08 and 2010 where LMP1 and LMP2 cars were both equally capable of winning at most tracks?

[canaglia]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Of course, if we knew what laptimes were at Paul Ricard and Algarve between the TS050 vs the GR010, we could probably know what to expect. Not that Toyota are exactly forthcoming with that information...

Also, aren't the LMP2s also carrying ballast compared to 2020 specs? Could the ACO maybe be (maybe not intentionally) engineering ALMS 2007-08 and 2010 where LMP1 and LMP2 cars were both equally capable of winning at most tracks?

don't know about that, so far I know 2021 lmp2 will have a dunlop/goodyear compound supplied for everyone and the powercut (guess engine limited to 8250rpm like IMSA). At the moment lmh are about 100kg heavier and should have a worse overall aero even if as shown by toyota pics, lmh should have a much more better developed diffuser

[TF110]

Originally Posted by canaglia

According to lmp2 portimao test, the oreca 07 restricted at 560hp was only 1 second slower than an unrestricted one. Just making a simple proportion, at le mans, fastest 2021 lmp2 should be in a range of 3.28-3.30. I think we should expect 3.25-3.27 for lmdh, basically 2020 lmp2 top performances.
I wonder how fast will be lmh in a track like silverstone where lmp2 should have a consistent advantage being lighter and having an overall better aero.

Don't forget the tires lmp2 will run. I have a feeling that will play a big role in slowing the cars down.

[Gingers4Justice]

Even if the LMP2s are 5 secs a lap slower, it is perfectly possible we will see one on the overall podium several times.

There's not exactly an army of LMHs, and all of them will be new. Even Toyota's LMH is undercooked after recent testing setbacks.

The P2 Orecas can run and run and run.

[Napolis]

Originally Posted by Gingers4Justice

Even if the LMP2s are 5 secs a lap slower, it is perfectly possible we will see one on the overall podium several times.

There's not exactly an army of LMHs, and all of them will be new. Even Toyota's LMH is undercooked after recent testing setbacks.

The P2 Orecas can run and run and run.

This is why we stayed with ICE for our LMH.
It can run and run as well.

[chernaudi]

Odd that Toyota may be having issues, given that the hybrid system is basically a battery powered version of the Audi 3.5MJ hybrid that only made 250-270bhp. Or could it be the sensors and tech that's intended to limit the cars to constant 670bhp?

[canaglia]

issues can cause or be caused by basically everything... on 2019 #7 lost le mans because of a tire sensor...

[Napolis]

Originally Posted by canaglia

issues can cause or be caused by basically everything... on 2019 #7 lost le mans because of a tire sensor...

Their system is VERY complex. Note their weight as reported by them.

[Sodemo]

I have a question regards the minimum weight of the cars. Are the cars going to be built massively underweight and then ballasted up to the minimum of 1030kg? I know the engine has a min weight of 165kg also, so that would have to be factored in.

[Napolis]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

I have a question regards the minimum weight of the cars. Are the cars going to be built massively underweight and then ballasted up to the minimum of 1030kg? I know the engine has a min weight of 165kg also, so that would have to be factored in.

First note the weight Toyota says their car is is. 1040KG.
Ours is 1030KG.
10KG preemptive BOP ballast?? Or???
Secondly:
Open in chrome and it will translate. Good explanation of our Le Mans program.
https://www.formulapassion.it/motorsport/sport-gt/wec-glickenhaus-007-semplice-affidabile-lemans-luca-ciancetti-podium-engineering-hypercar-543418.html

[deggis]

That 1040 kg is probably a mistake... 1040kg is also the original minimum weight from 2018 rulebook (before it went down and then increased again to current 1030).

[Mike E]

Originally Posted by deggis

That 1040 kg is probably a mistake... 1040kg is also the original minimum weight from 2018 rulebook (before it went down and then increased again to current 1030).

I don't remember 1040kg. It was 1100kg when Aston Martin were messing everyone about.

https://www.motorsport.com/wec/news/...-lmdh/4791031/

[deggis]

Originally Posted by Mike E

I don't remember 1040kg. It was 1100kg when Aston Martin were messing everyone about.

https://www.motorsport.com/wec/news/...-lmdh/4791031/

I checked before posting. That first rulebook is from December 2018, so it was before Aston's lobbying efforts.

However I was supposed to say "before it went up (to 1100) and then decreased again to current 1030".

[Napolis]

Originally Posted by deggis

I checked before posting. That first rulebook is from December 2018, so it was before Aston's lobbying efforts.

However I was supposed to say "before it went up (to 1100) and then decreased again to current 1030".

If Toyota is to be believed it weighs
1040KG
https://motorsport.tech/motorsport/wec/toyota-gazoo-racing-unveils-gr010-hybrid-hypercar

[canaglia]

maybe 1040kg is the min.weight the car was homologated with?
from this season lmh are almost 5m long, maybe they needed extra 10kg of ballast to get a better mass F/R distribution, also in f1 when cars started to be >5m long mercedes started 2017 season overweighted.
Not to consider that min. weight for each car may change according to bot/eot

[CTD]

Explanatory video from FIA/ACO:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=01eWObrfgLk

Honestly, not very good for knowledgable fans, but good for the casual I assume.

[hondafan37]

Originally Posted by CTD

Explanatory video from FIA/ACO:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=01eWObrfgLk

Honestly, not very good for knowledgable fans, but good for the casual I assume.

It is interesting to see the representation of the Bugatti Bolide in the video.

[Napolis]

Based on this and that cars would have to leave by sea for Sebring on Feb 4 I don't
see WEC Sebring happening.
https://www.motorsport.com/wec/news/toyota-behind-target-aragon-test/5083935/?ic_source=home-page-widget&ic_medium=widget&ic_campaign=widget-22