2015 Formula 1 silly season thread.

[321Go]

It's really funny to keep reading these misinformed people continually posting misinformation about Hamilton going to Mercedes for the "big bucks". It's funny because Martin Whitmarsh himself said just after Hamilton was confirmed a AMG, that McLaren, in the end had in fact made Lewis an offer that was higher than Mercedes' final offer. The simple fact is, it was not money that Lewis was seeking. If it was, he'd have stayed at McLaren.

But we still have some highly misinformed people, pretending to be well informed, trying to inform the misinformed, just so they look like they are well informed.

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by Born Racer

Mike - where do you get your information from? You appear well informed.

Let us just say that I knew/know quite a few people from the motor-racing world starting in the early sixties. I still keep in touch with some of them, or those still around, and I have good friends who still work in Formula 1 or elsewhere in motor-racing. I sometimes have to be careful about what I say, because I have no wish to betray any confidences.

I come from an era, and area, where it was sometimes difficult to not trip over budding or established racing stars (including many that went onto or were already in Formula 1), and being callous youths, we didn't care who we went drinking with or out clubbing. And it was second nature for us to make blooming nuisances of ourselves by inviting ourselves into their homes and workshops. This was helped by us being on friendly terms with Gregor Grant's (founder and original editor of Autosport) sons who lived just up the road from me.

But in reality, a lot of what I write is what I would like to believe is just common-sense based on some very limited inside knowledge but with an understanding of how most of the teams operate. I have found many times that if it doesn't make sense, then it won't be true.

I also hate speculation because it's just such a waste of good thinking time, even though it seems to be a "sport" loved by many on here and elsewhere.. My hobby is to take known facts and then use lateral thinking to come up with a definitive potential answer which I will either post as an opinion, or store it away for later use.

However, all that said, please don't take all that I write as gospel, because I have been known to be wrong on many occasions. And as my late wife would have liked me to believe, I was never right, was I dearest?

[321Go]

Anyways, amongst all the bulls**t, here's some more rubbish on formula1.com about the McLaren driver line-up.

The fact is, McLaren have just four options.

1. Jenson goes. Or..
2. Kevin goes. Or..
3. They both stay. Or..
4. They both leave.

Nothing to it really.

[Paradise City]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

Dennis tends not to get into slanging matches on air, but I can tell you that he was royally p*ssed off about the two you mention above. With Hamilton, he let it known, via Whitmarsh, that they weren't getting into a bidding war with Mercedes over him, because that was what Hamilton and his advisers were trying to attempt. They offered him an increase, and told him to take it or leave it because they had had enough of Hamilton going backwards and forwards to Mercedes to screw more potential money out of them and then telling McLaren to match it plus a little extra.

As for Alonso, he may smile when talking to him or about him, but it is through gritted teeth. It was because of Alonso's actions that he had to step down from being team principle, and cost the team all it's 2007 constructors points and a $100 million fine. Alonso had been destabilising the team because the team would not acknowledg him as the number one driver, and on one occasion actually stopped Hamilton from getting a last flying lap. Alonso was aware of what had happened between Coughlan and Stepney, and when he threatened to send details to the FIA, Dennis believed that Alonso was making false allegations.

As Teretonga says, Dennis is a much maligned person, but he demands loyalty. He amply rewards that loyalty, but he also remembers actions of those who betray him and his largess. A fine example of that unstinting loyalty is the fact that Martin Whitmarsh still works at Woking, and yet he is not vindictive, as shown by the fact that, if I remember correctly, he let Alonso leave without completing his contract that had about another year to run.

We're talking about Ron not Enzo. He'd have Hamilton back in a flash if he could get him. An Alonso return isn't problematic on account of Dennis' purported "grudge", other factors maybe, but if Alonso could improve McLaren's performance and was available - he'd get him. Y'see Dennis is a serious person, not some sort of mafia godfather type who periodically smoulders in rage bearing indefinite grudges from way back when. If analytically he understands that an available driver would uplift the McLaren team, he'd bid for him. Don't think for a moment that Hamilton and Alonso lie outside that calculus.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Paradise City

We're talking about Ron not Enzo. He'd have Hamilton back in a flash if he could get him. An Alonso return isn't problematic on account of Dennis' purported "grudge", other factors maybe, but if Alonso could improve McLaren's performance and was available - he'd get him. Y'see Dennis is a serious person, not some sort of mafia godfather type who periodically smoulders in rage bearing indefinite grudges from way back when. If analytically he understands that an available driver would uplift the McLaren team, he'd bid for him. Don't think for a moment that Hamilton and Alonso lie outside that calculus.

In a world that has Hulkenberg, Rogro and Kvyat looking for better drives, and Magnussen at McLaren alongside Button who is certainly Hamilton's equal, I don't think either Hambo or Teflonso need apply!

[Paradise City]

Originally Posted by wnut

In a world that has Hulkenberg, Rogro and Kvyat looking for better drives, and Magnussen at McLaren alongside Button who is certainly Hamilton's equal, I don't think either Hambo or Teflonso need apply!

They already have a young gun in terms of Magnussen, having two in a delicate period of transition is a very tough ask. Hulkenberg is a prospect that figures highly compared to Hamilton but a Hamilton return at some juncture - unless he gains ascendancy at Merc in the interval - is virtually inevitable I would say. The likes of Alonso isn't getting any younger unless market forces align soon - which is hardly likely - particularly as McLaren will take time to gel with Honda.

[chillibowl]

is Whitmarsh still an active employee at Mclaren? i would have though his employment was a formality while his lawyers worked to secure what i would imagine is a sizable severance package.

anyways this is a silly season thread so on topic i wonder if MW will turn up as a team principle somewhere else.

[TheNo1F1Fan]

Seems like that Leimer has a Marussia F1 chance:
http://www.f1-fansite.com/f1-news/cl...russia-chance/

[garcon]

Originally Posted by 321Go

But we still have some highly misinformed people, pretending to be well informed, trying to inform the misinformed, just so they look like they are well informed.

Oh boy, that really is a thing of beauty. Please don't stop. I'm absolutely crying here.

[Alfaholic]

Originally Posted by TheNo1F1Fan

Seems like that Leimer has a Marussia F1 chance:
http://www.f1-fansite.com/f1-news/cl...russia-chance/

Anybody with a sniff of a Superlicence and a decent sized wallet has a Marussia F1 chance.

[Tucky]

It would be a shame if another GP2 champion was passed over for a race seat again in favour for someone who had a bad season yet still got an F1 seat (Chilton)

[wnut]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

is Whitmarsh still an active employee at Mclaren? i would have though his employment was a formality while his lawyers worked to secure what i would imagine is a sizable severance package.

anyways this is a silly season thread so on topic i wonder if MW will turn up as a team principle somewhere else.

AFAIK Martin Whitmarsh is still a valued employee of McLaren, just not the F1 racing team principal anymore.
He is close to Ron, and Ron is loyal to his friends.

[Born Racer]

I know Magnussen is rated highly and he's obviously good, but don't forget it's Button who's been driving home the results most of the season so far. It seems like now things have got more tricky, Magnussen's having the apprenticeship Button himself began to have at Benetton/ Renault in his second year (I think it was Renault by then).

[Moneyseeker]

Originally Posted by garcon

Oh boy, that really is a thing of beauty. Please don't stop. I'm absolutely crying here.

“Reports that say that something hasn't happened are always interesting to me, because as we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns- the ones we don't know we don't know.”

To quote Donald Rumsfeld....

[Moneyseeker]

I'm not suggesting that McLaren aren't pushing as hard as they can this year - witness the raft of updates in Austria - but all they have is internal pressure from within McLaren and shareholders. This year they don't have a major sponsor or manufacturer pressing for results.

Next year this will change dramatically, Honda will have massive expectation. Probably some within Honda will have reservations in the back of their mind from their recent F1 experience. This year McLaren had the luxury of putting Mag in the car without all of the above pressures.

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by Moneyseeker

I'm not suggesting that McLaren aren't pushing as hard as they can this year - witness the raft of updates in Austria - but all they have is internal pressure from within McLaren and shareholders. This year they don't have a major sponsor or manufacturer pressing for results.

Next year this will change dramatically, Honda will have massive expectation. Probably some within Honda will have reservations in the back of their mind from their recent F1 experience. This year McLaren had the luxury of putting Mag in the car without all of the above pressures.

Being bored and at a loose end, I will join in your game to while away a few minutes.

McLaren has had (previously) an extremely long experience in working with Honda as technical partners, and the way that their dealing with Honda shows that they know how to achieve good results over a longish period. The structures put in place both in the UK and Japan meant that they were able to work in fairly good harmony, and often that is achieved by their being a lack of "external" pressures.

Unlike their time at BAR/Honda Racing, Honda were not demanding that senior personnel were flying out to Japan every 5 minutes (huge over exageration, I know) to explain what was going on. They trusted McLaren to get on and produce the best cars that they possibly could, and I expect no change in that philosophy this tine round.

[Moneyseeker]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

Being bored and at a loose end, I will join in your game to while away a few minutes.

McLaren has had (previously) an extremely long experience in working with Honda as technical partners, and the way that their dealing with Honda shows that they know how to achieve good results over a longish period. The structures put in place both in the UK and Japan meant that they were able to work in fairly good harmony, and often that is achieved by their being a lack of "external" pressures.

Unlike their time at BAR/Honda Racing, Honda were not demanding that senior personnel were flying out to Japan every 5 minutes (huge over exageration, I know) to explain what was going on. They trusted McLaren to get on and produce the best cars that they possibly could, and I expect no change in that philosophy this tine round.

Agreed, I was just contrasting the difference in running a customer engine and team with no major sponsor to satisfy with the expectation that comes with representing a major manufacturer and their stakeholders.

I work with a number of corporates on commercial partnerships and I would respectfully suggest that things have moved on since Honda were last with McLaren or in F1 at all. Post 2008, the demand for value and a quicker, tangible return on investment is greater.

I am sure McLaren will do a good job for Honda and I expect them to be a serious championship contender in 2016 and maybe they will be close in 2015 - which makes the driver selection very interesting and a more important factor than 2014.

[chunterer]

Re McLaren driver situation...
There must be some raised eyebrows at how both Button and Kevin appear to be struggling and how the jettisoned Perez appears to be thriving alongside Hulk at Force India.

Whilst we know the McLaren is once again a difficult chassis, Button is hardly doing much to keep his name in the frame anywhere else and Magnussen is part of the family as Hamilton was to a degree.

They maybe thinking they dropped the wrong driver, even though I'm still pretty sure performance wasn't the real reason Checo left, which was probably more likely related to McLaren's lack of a title sponsor this season.

I am convinced Telmex were supposed to take the deal yet didn't because McLaren were struggling, Checo was left high and dry which is why Whitmarsh tried to help him get another drive.

Anyway moving on, I think the real beneficiary of a Button leaving McLaren and Hamo leaving Brackley scenario will be Alonso who would be straight into Mercedes surely?

I think at this stage Fernando is only going to be interested in a winning car, as Senna was at a similar stage of his career when he joined Williams.

[VIVA GT]

Originally Posted by Moneyseeker

I'm not suggesting that McLaren aren't pushing as hard as they can this year - witness the raft of updates in Austria - but all they have is internal pressure from within McLaren and shareholders. This year they don't have a major sponsor or manufacturer pressing for results.

Next year this will change dramatically, Honda will have massive expectation. Probably some within Honda will have reservations in the back of their mind from their recent F1 experience. This year McLaren had the luxury of putting Mag in the car without all of the above pressures.

Always one for a conspiracy theory and a bit of a stir:
Could it be that McLaren are slightly sand-bagging this year, learning as much as they can about the chassis & Power Unit (I called it the engine initially, how old-fashioned!) packaging, but then next season with the Honda strapped in the back will show their true potential with real pace (and making everyone think that Honda are even cleverer than Mercedes!

[Moneyseeker]

Originally Posted by VIVA GT

Always one for a conspiracy theory and a bit of a stir:
Could it be that McLaren are slightly sand-bagging this year, learning as much as they can about the chassis & Power Unit (I called it the engine initially, how old-fashioned!) packaging, but then next season with the Honda strapped in the back will show their true potential with real pace (and making everyone think that Honda are even cleverer than Mercedes!

Unlikely, but there is of course the ironic fact that Honda are replacing Mercedes at McLaren having previously had to watch a Mercedes engine win the World Championship with Brawn and Button in a car Honda had paid for the design and development of and in a team they substantially funded that year....so there is some unfinished business

[Paradise City]

The obvious thing - and the smart thing would be to divert your resources to hitting the ground running in your first year with a works powerplant. So, it's intuitive to see Mclaren's performances this year in that light.

[wnut]

Be good form to show a mega jump in performance with your new power plant too!

[NaBUru38]

Which rookies have any chance of taking a seat? Palmer, Nasr, Ceceotto from GP2? Sainz, Stevens from FR3.5? Lynn from GP3? Perhaps a DTM or WEC driver?

[TheNo1F1Fan]

Using the Google Translator for this one (http://as-web.jp/news/info.php?c_id=1&no=57906), Jenson Button might be residual and "indescribable".

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by Born Racer

I know Magnussen is rated highly and he's obviously good, but don't forget it's Button who's been driving home the results most of the season so far. It seems like now things have got more tricky, Magnussen's having the apprenticeship Button himself began to have at Benetton/ Renault in his second year (I think it was Renault by then).

I actually wonder a little about Button. While Hamilton was at McLaren there were days he was exceptional and others where he seemed to struggle to get it together, particularly in qualifying.
It was the same at Honda and he really only ignited at Brawn, where he had the diffuser and a great grip package to win his title. When matched with Perez at McLaren, in a difficult car, Perez was encouraged to step up and when he did Button got upset because he was 'too aggressive'. Perez settled a bit and when running together, fell in behind.... only to lose hi seat at the end of the year.

Magnussen becomes the replacement and clearly outpaces Button in Australia and by the time we got to China they were struggling to get into Q3. The car had problems, and not enough grip...... the same car that was on the second and third step of the podium (officially) in Australia?

Then Button says that Magnussen's inexperience is hurting McLaren's development....The same Magnussen who has out-qualified him in half the races this year.... and when Perez got up on top of him a year earlier he said he was too rough...
Button was said to be a driver who didn't drive around problems, the car had to be right to get the most out of the driver, and he had trouble getting the most out of the tyres in qualifying when up against Hamilton.

Something doesn't add up.
How would McLaren have fared if they had Magnussen and Perez this year...?
Did they drop the wrong person? (and I am not the only one who asks this question)