[Official] Emilia Romagna Grand Prix 2020: Grand Prix Weekend - Round 13 of 17

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by gert

That's not entirely sure.
He had 28.437 on Bottas just before VSC was announced, and his pitstop took 30.382 all in (2.9 for the stop itself).
Sure, he covered the some distance during those 30 seconds, but still; there would not have been much left, if anything.

I realize without VSC he could have carried on for a lap (or 2, or 3) to make sure he would have had plenty of time.

If he had a 28.437 second lead over Bottas and the stop took 30 seconds, he should have come out behind Bottas.

[Anyopenroad]

Originally Posted by gert

That's not entirely sure.
He had 28.437 on Bottas just before VSC was announced, and his pitstop took 30.382 all in (2.9 for the stop itself).

Thank you for the actual numbers!

I was going by the rough numbers being discussed by the Sky commentators, who were saying he needed about 26-27secs to have a chance of coming out ahead.

[Anyopenroad]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

If he had a 28.437 second lead over Bottas and the stop took 30 seconds, he should have come out behind Bottas.

No because for most or all of those 30 secs Bottas was under FCY.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Anyopenroad

No because for most or all of those 30 secs Bottas was under FCY.

Of course, that 30 second VSC. Location checks out.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Adam is being sarcastic.

I've never known Adam ever do that before. This really has been a year of firsts......

[GT6]

F1 is now at the stage were unless the Mercedes hit problems no one else stands a chance, yes they are the best team have a great car and good drivers but the sport needs competition, the track obviously did not make overtaking easy but several good overtakes further down the field make you wonder how good the racing could be if the Mercedes were not quite so good

[P38 in workshop]

It looks a bit closer when Verstappen really pushes the Red Bull hard,but realistically it has become a Mercedes led series.At least there is some racing among the rest and it was amusing to see Vettel and Raikkonen running 4th and 5th for a while.

[TrapezeArtist]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Ferraris decision making is much easier. If the driver is doing well (finally Vettel manages to not make an arse of himself) then they should sabotage it to the best of their abilities.

[TrapezeArtist]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Let Bottas make the strategy calls he wants. Let him try to out think Lewis (because he will never, ever out race him over a season). He'll almost certainly still lose, but it will be completely organic. Right now, Mercedes internal politics dictate things too much. They are allowed to complete for wins. With the asterix of it must be within the rules of the internal politics at Mercedes too. I want to see Bottas be allowed to challenge more with mad strat calls - and I want to Lewis react to them and cement the GOAT status further.

I know I'm an idealist and it isn't going to happen, but:

I would love to see every driver given freedom to run the strategy he wants (well, the driver/race engineer partnership wants). Race engineers should be advised by strategists, etc, but leave the decisions to just them. The only rigid input from the team would be a simple rule to stop them pitting at the same time, or at least the second car would have to accept being stacked.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by TrapezeArtist

I know I'm an idealist and it isn't going to happen, but:

I would love to see every driver given freedom to run the strategy he wants (well, the driver/race engineer partnership wants). Race engineers should be advised by strategists, etc, but leave the decisions to just them. The only rigid input from the team would be a simple rule to stop them pitting at the same time, or at least the second car would have to accept being stacked.

Me too, but i think the fans have forced this situation.

When a team wants to be fair they also fall into the trap of wanting to be seen to be fair. And here fair gets interpreted as “the same”. Trying to then also take this and maximize opportunity to win leads to what we have.

If the team did as you said, which would be great, then imagine the fan outrage when it didn’t go the way of the weaker driver. And it is more likely to work in favor of the better driver, because, well, they are better.

Which is the one good thing about Ferrari’s approach in the 2000s. At least they just did what they did and didn’t tie themselves in knots trying to be fair and perceived to be fair. While I was never a fan of their approach and preferred McLaren’s approach I was happy to defend that they can do what they like.

I think the fans should grow up a bit and not get into a tizzy when the driver they like better comes of worse in these situations. Then perhaps we can allow these teams to go racing.

[Adam43]

Oh, one slight development of your suggestion. The team might occasionally have to manage a situation where drivers choosing their strategy may be to the detriment to the overall team result. They’d have to consider that.

Which for the fan would add an extra dimension, as long as the fan doesn’t get all in a tizzy when it doesn’t work out the way they would like.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by Adam43

I think the fans should grow up a bit and not get into a tizzy when the driver they like better comes of worse in these situations. Then perhaps we can allow these teams to go racing.

[Anyopenroad]

Originally Posted by Adam43

Oh, one slight development of your suggestion. The team might occasionally have to manage a situation where drivers choosing their strategy may be to the detriment to the overall team result. They’d have to consider that.

One of the Autosport reports emphasises this: Mercedes' overwhelming priority is the constructors championship and scoring 1-2s. This reminded me of the last race in 2016 when Hamilton backed up the pack and Rosberg and was told to stop it by the team despite the constructors' title and a 1-2 in the championship being guaranteed, because Hamilton was jeopardising the race 1-2.

I suspect they'd do that particular incident differently now, but the point Autosport make was that Hamilton was given the alternative strategy in Imola in order to get him ahead of Verstappen. That's a dyanmic which wasn't present in Portimao, when the strategy call was just between the two Mercs.

[Tourer]

Enjoyed the race - only real downside to me was the aero wash problem, which isn't the circuit's flaw of course.

Like others, I'd love to see more Grands Prix at circuits like this and less at a Blandring in Biddlonia.

Was quite an amazing race from a fortune (or luck) point of view I thought - Gasly's engine issue, Max's tyre as just a couple of examples. I suspect that Hamilton could have won the race without the virtual SC but that certainly robbed us of what was looking to be a very close situation after his pit stop - massive anti-climax after his alternative strategy and banzai laps looked like they'd delivered him arriving on track right where the two (at the time) effective leaders were.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by Anyopenroad

One of the Autosport reports emphasises this: Mercedes' overwhelming priority is the constructors championship and scoring 1-2s. This reminded me of the last race in 2016 when Hamilton backed up the pack and Rosberg and was told to stop it by the team despite the constructors' title and a 1-2 in the championship being guaranteed, because Hamilton was jeopardising the race 1-2.

I suspect they'd do that particular incident differently now, but the point Autosport make was that Hamilton was given the alternative strategy in Imola in order to get him ahead of Verstappen. That's a dyanmic which wasn't present in Portimao, when the strategy call was just between the two Mercs.

And, of course, the team has to make a call at the time.

I suspect this is where the team “favor” Hamilton. There are situations where they have to maximise what they’ve got and consciously or sub-consciously they know that they can try somethings with Hamilton rather than Bottas.

Then consider outcome bias with regard to how it is viewed afterwards, there are somethings that might have a 50:50 outcome for Bottas, but it becomes 70:30 for Hamilton. Or similar.

[2 litre Touring Car Star]

I really don't relate to the general ebb and flow of conversation itt. The defence justification of MB's favourtism of Hamilton, and his fortune off the back of random moments that have nothing to do with him.

The exchange between chillibowl and ascarracing attempting to downplay the significance of the VSC on p3. Then you've got Adan's sarcasm on p5, and his attempt to add doubt on MB's favouritism of Hamilton just above.

The evidence that MB favour Hamilton is building and building. I wonder what would have to occur for those who defend or justify such favouritism to acknowledge such favourtism occurs?

No chat on how pitting under VSC allows and unreasonable advantage or how it distorts the progression of the race.

[2 litre Touring Car Star]

Originally Posted by ascarracinguk

It’s simple really. Leader has preference on strategy and tyre....more often than not its Lewis. That works if it’s 1-2....when you’re trying to get your second car ahead of a competitor you do everything you can to do so.

At the end of the day, as always both Mercedes are on the same tyres...it’s just that Hamilton can make them last longer which engineers him an advantage.

You'd hope so. The car is designed around him.

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

So they needed 26.5 seconds over Verstappen, and had 28, but waited until it was 27 over Bottas? Are they allowed to change strart, just not tyre? Doesn't seem that simple?

If I was Bottas I'd collect the pay cheque for a wee while and accept the reality of these decisions and go off elsewhere later lol.

Dare I say that deep down he's been doing it for a number of years.

Reading your posts overall, I'm not quite sure of your of your stance on Bottas. In your other posts you seem to dismiss him as though he's some plodding touring car journeyman. To allow alternative strategies like you been suggesting says to me that he is being affected by MB unfavourable pit strategies as is therefore not that bad, and even quite close to Hamilton.

Originally Posted by chillibowl

Can Bottas take it to his team mate here?

If he cant then surely the debate on whether or not Merc should treat Bottas as equal is over?

The debate is over, but there wasn't one to begin with

[Adam43]

I’m not trying to defend anything. Mercedes could favor Hamilton as Ferrari did with Schumacher if they wished. I’m just saying they don’t to the extreme suggested by some above and they are pretty fair considering.

I see it much more like the Hakkinen and Coulthard situation than the Schumacher and Irvine/Barichello/Massa situation. There are clearly degrees here. What is meant by “favored”. I’m sure Toto will look back with more fondness on the driver that has won fourth eight championships for them.

In addition, I am also making the point that even if everything was perfectly fair then it would appear to not be, especially when one driver was stronger than the other.

I’m also not interested in arguing, but am interested in discussing and hearing others views, especially if it can be done in a friendly light hearted and occasionally humorous way. Although I accept I fail at humor often.

[Born Racer]

Sorry if I've missed this, but is it known if Bottas was refused the chance to go onto the softer tyre in Portimão? On the radio, we heard him say "maybe we could try the softs", which didn't sound too decisive, possibly the precursor to a discussion with his race engineer, rather than an outright strategy call.

[Adam43]

IIRC they did refuse wouldn’t “fair”

Edit: here is Merc’s “rationale”: https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/b...se-gp/4899057/

[TrapezeArtist]

Originally Posted by Adam43

Oh, one slight development of your suggestion. The team might occasionally have to manage a situation where drivers choosing their strategy may be to the detriment to the overall team result. They’d have to consider that.

We're bang on the same wavelength, Adam. With respect to your comments about Ferrari and Schumacher, I do understand that teams will favour a driver in order to help him to a World Championship, because that will be more prestige even for the team than winning the Manufacturers WC. I can accept that in small doses, although to be honest I don't think Mercedes are doing that now, nor have they done it for a few years. It was the way Ferrari handled it back in the Schumacher years that stuck in my craw.