Engineering and racing

[Ciro Pabón]

I've been posting for a while on Ten Tenths. From a recommendation made by F1Technical administrator, I found this forum on Racecar Engineering and let me tell you I am very happy by that.

First thing I read here is an editorial comment by Charles Armstrong-Wilson on the relevance of race car engineering for car manufacturers. I agree with his rather pessimistic point of view, as I believe it is inevitable that the financing you need in motorsports grows the same way the audience does. This has two influences: more TV fans, as opposed to track fans, may bring us a sport that put more emphasis on its appearance than in its essence, and, secondly, larger investments require less risks taken by the administrators. It is logical to expect a more uniform series, mechanically speaking.

What worries me is that even Mr. Armstrong-Wilson intelligent comment fails to make the connection between racing and road design. Is racing relegated "only" to make better suspensions, more powerful engines and faster cars?

I can understand that the teams, that are competing against each other, keep the car design shrouded in secrecy. But I don't understand why this has to happen in track design: after all, all the tracks are more or less "independent" and the engineers designing them are not forced to have the "paranoid tendences" that can afflict their mechanical engineering colleagues.

Besides, over 1.000.000 persons die annually in car accidents. Some of them will be our friends and relatives. When you analyze that problem in terms of morbility (the same way a doctor analyzes a disease), most experts agree that the main solution is in the road design. We don't see the people dying all the time by driving the same brands or models of cars, but surely we see them dying at the same spots on the road.

In a totally "amateurish", Internet driven, search for track design principles I've been able to find some inspiration for a couple of road designs, even without having access to the information and modelling that is carried nowadays to design a track. I've been trying blindly to look for information on modelling using "open" racing simulators, but I wonder if these are all the tools I'm going to get from racing during my life...

Let me tell you I've been modelling traffic for many years and you wouldn't believe the incredibly simplifying assumptions made by a road designer, compared with the tools available to any racecar designer, which, in my humble opinion, brings us a lack of safety in most road designs.

As I see it, it would be easy for FIA to disseminate what the more modern tracks have brought to civil engineering.

Any comments?

[ss_collins]

Thats an interesting point which I've never heard before, certainly track design is very specific about what you can and can't do, people like Clive Bowen and Hermann Tilke possibly could teach road designers a thing or two, but the real problem with roads at least in europe is that they were never designed. The road into our village has probably followed the same route for at least 200 years.

But yes racing cars should have more relevance to road car design, even at club racing level you can encourage the use of alternative fuels or road safety but how many of us bother?

[AU N EGL]

Originally Posted by Ciro Pabón

As I see it, it would be easy for FIA to disseminate what the more modern tracks have brought to civil engineering.

Any comments?

Have you looked at the FIA web site?


Here is the FIA Institute for Motor Sport Safty
http://www.fiainstitute.com/document...for_Safety.pdf

or the FIA Technical Regulations, especially "circuits'.

http://www.fia.com/sport/Regulations/index.html


Good Luck

[AU N EGL]

History of Motorsports saftey
http://www.fiainstitute.com/features/feature_2.htm

"Circuit Safety Analysis
The FIA has developed the Circuit Safety Analysis System (CSAS) to enable the analysis of speeds at any part of a circuit allowing the calculation and visualisation of run-off areas and energy dissipating barrier systems. The data for this analysis is collected from Accident Data Recorders installed in-car.

The FIA Institute is working on the continuing development of the CSAS system to investigate extreme accident trajectories and accident severity probability for given circuits as well as accident severity prediction."

[AU N EGL]

Her is another FIA wed site called "Making Roads Safe"

http://www.makeroadssafe.org/

[AU N EGL]

And the ACO web site may have information that you are looking for:

http://www.lemans.org/aco/pages/conn...naitre_gb.html

[dtype38]

Interesting subject, but I can't say I agree with the basic hypothesis that race track design is directly transferable to roads for saftey reasons. It's for the same simple reason as the problem with the relevence of race car engineering to normal road cars. In both cases the former is so highly specialised and specific to the task required, that any application in the "real world" is immediately swamped by impracticalities and variables.

To be more specific, race car engineering doesn't concern itself with getting a fridge freezer in the boot or rapid windscreen defrosting, any more than race track design have concerns with speed humps or night visibility of speed limit signs.

That is NOT to say, however, that race or track engineering don't have a contribution to make. Personally I believe in technological "filter down". In the same way that the Lunar Missions brought us all sorts of technology that may well have not been designed if it hadn't been for that particular engineering challenge, then I'm fully supportive of the expenditure made in F1 in pushing the frontiers of automotive design. We have no idea what some of the applications of the technology may be. Much of it could be outside of vehicle or road design. But let's face it, if it wasn't for the commercial and marketing finances coming into F1, then who else would fund basic cutting edge research of this nature. Do you think the major motor manufacturers would spend that sort of money on basic research to produce a better hatch back?

Anyway, coming back to the point of road design and safety. Here in London the Mayor has launched a campaign to cut road death and serious injury by 40% in the next 3 years. We are seeing all sorts of traffic control and road design changes already. One example is that many of the crossings, juctions and tight bends in our area are being re-surfaced in super high grip corrugated sections of light green tarmac. These give a visual and sensory warning of a hazzard as well as dramatically reducing the stopping distance of a car doing an emergency stop. Another example is a government web site specifically for reporting transient road safety hazzards such as spillages, broken signals, debris and obstructions, etc, so that attempts can be made to clear them quickly. IMHO this sort of thing will have much more relevence on actual road death figures than anything that can be learned from race track design.

[greenamex2]

Given that car drivers seem to be able to drive into each other in the daytime in the dry on a perfectly good straight piece of road there really isn't much hope them no matter what you do.

Given risk compensation theory, anything you do to reduce risk will just result in them taking more risks 'in compensation'.

The grippier road surface is a perfect example. Once they are used to it they'll just go faster because they CAN brake later.

Transient road signs are another good example. When the sign isn't lit the driver will just assume that there are no hazards and pay less attention. And anyone who drives round the M25 late at night knows how rubbish the people are at turning the signs back off, and hence usually gets really blase about taking any notice of them.

There are only really two solutions.

1. Let the machine take over, either driving the car in it's entirey or using 'anti-stupidity' devices like computer/radar initiated braking.

2. Better training AND driving standards enforcement. I'd like to see everybody who causes an accident tot up points and after a set number have to take a test. Also, start concetrating on driving standards using cameras, and actually enforce them with points. Of course this will never happen because it would involve the police actually doing something other than sitting at the bottom of a hill at 07:00 on a Sunday morning nicking people for exceeding the speed limit by a few mile an hour.

I can't see how motorsport can help with the first option, and judging by driving standard in Touring Cars I doubt if the general public would want to see us help with the second!

[AU N EGL]

Denis

I think you bring up some very good points. It seems that once driver have their licience, and they 'KNOW HOW' to drive. Hell would have to freeze over before they take a driving test and learn new driving skills.

Not like a race driver, who constantly wants to learn new things and skills.

Part of a big challange with pavements painted or colored Green may be like why Green cars have the highest accident rates of being hit.* Close too 50% of the male population are colorblind. Cant see green or red very well.



* In equal percentages. I believe it is brown cars in the UK, as the percentages of Brown cars are much higher then other colors. In the states it is sliver/ gray cars. Silver / gray cars make up for almost 50% off all cars on the roads.

Still Green cars have a unusully high percentage of being hit. Color blind drivers not seeing green cars being the problem.

[dtype38]

Originally Posted by AU N EGL

* In equal percentages. I believe it is brown cars in the UK, as the percentages of Brown cars are much higher then other colors. In the states it is sliver/ gray cars. Silver / gray cars make up for almost 50% off all cars on the roads.

Nope, the reason it isn't silver cars in the uk is that this colour is the sole perogative of Mercedes Benz. The drivers of these cars don't go out in poor visibility weather because no one would see them driving their nice shiny expensive cars... so no point.

BT, the biggest UK telecom company proved this point a few years ago by coming up with a new livery and painting all their vans in a mid/light grey/silver. They went out in all sorts of weather, including fog. So many got written off because nobody could see them parked at the side of the road that they had to change the whole company livery again!


Dennis, lots of people come up with solutions for this problem that "would never work" or "will never happen". How about suggesting some that, given average driving standards and the disposition of the average pc plod, would actually save some lives.

[AU N EGL]

Originally Posted by dtype38

Nope, the reason it isn't silver cars in the uk is that this colour is the sole perogative of Mercedes Benz. The drivers of these cars don't go out in poor visibility weather because no one would see them driving their nice shiny expensive cars... so no point.

Thats a good one. and True.

There have been groups here in the states that have apporched States DOT ( Dept Of Transportaion) about the new NASCAR Safe barriers and why they have not been put into use on publich highways?

The DOT respones were, "Whats that?"

[retro_msport]

An example of racetrack design that would cut deaths on the road ???

Brands Hatch tunnels... you dont cross the track, you go under it!

If your going straight ahead on the road its far safer to go under/over the crossroads than through the traffic , Turning left (uk) have a long slip road so speeds can be equalled (pit lane exit) And a solid white line for traffic in lane 2 (no lane change) for that section, so you dont have car A pulling into the lane that car B wants to be in after gaining speed down the slip road. Cars in lane 1 can still move over into lane 2.
The same can be applied to cars turning right (uk) after they have crossed the road either by going under or over ..

Costs of this work .. what? 1 maybe 2 million GBP's per junction???

Whats a life worth?

In the town I live in, one accident at a crossroads can snarl the whole town up for hours as the police gain enough info for the Insurance and Solicitors, cost to other road users.. lots due to missed work hours.
Also in my town the answer that the Council/roadplanners have to reduce accidents is roundabouts, or should i say white painted blobs, which are normally littered with Glass and bumper trim.

Going over and under junctions will also save on jams, another area of minor shunts (and some major ones too)

[Tim Falce]

Gary, the biggest argument against your idea is lack of room to do this in towns.

[dtype38]

Gary, your slip lane idea is already used on quite a number of motorway and trunk road junctions. The most obvious that springs to mind is how the M11 joins the M25. Works perfectly when traffic is light, but it does require the traffic on the M25 to get into two lanes between the M11 off and on slip roads. The whole system works great in light traffic, but in heavy traffic it's chaos as all the lorries wanting to stay on the M25 shift from the inside and middle lanes to the middle and offside lanes. I'd be willing to hazzard a guess that this has caused as many accidents as the "pit lane exit" slip road has prevented. In fact, being at the bottom of a hill, it was such a problem having the lorries in the outside lanes that they had to add an extra lane on the eastbound side.

[AU N EGL]

Originally Posted by retro_msport

Also in my town the answer that the Council/roadplanners have to reduce accidents is roundabouts, or should i say white painted blobs, which are normally littered with Glass and bumper trim.

Roundabouts. I do not like those things.

[greenamex2]

Originally Posted by AU N EGL

Roundabouts. I do not like those things.

Funny, most of the Americans that come over here for any length of time seem to love them.

They have even started uses them in California when I was over there a year ago.

Having come up to a probably fatal accident on the A414 this evening, anywhere that you can turn across a dual carriageway should be shut immediately.

The particular one this evening has always worried me and now I know why. It is just laziness on some influential peoples part that it is there because they can't be bothered to drive an extra couple of mile out of their way.

[AU N EGL]

Originally Posted by Denis Bassom

Funny, most of the Americans that come over here for any length of time seem to love them.

We have some new ones in a small town north of where I live. Many comunities have started building roundabouts to slow traffic down. But in the UK and Australia when I am there on business, going around them to the Right, gets me a little woozy. Not to mention shifting with my left hand.

But give me a big flat piece of ashpalt and I will turn into a skid pad in no time

[Tim Falce]

Roundabouts were supposed to speed traffic up where the alternative at a junction would be traffic lights. The great British anti-car brigade has now cured this by putting traffic lights on most roundabouts.

When I was last in New Jersey they only had one roundabout and apparently it was so unpopular that they were in the process of removing it.

[AU N EGL]

Originally Posted by falcemob

When I was last in New Jersey they only had one roundabout and apparently it was so unpopular that they were in the process of removing it.

New Jersey? I am suppreised the population did not just drive right over the center of the roundabout there.

No wonder it was being removed.

[retro_msport]

Why is it Jaguars hunt in pairs

At busy x-roads there is often tail backs, and un-controlled x-roads are the ones i'm looking at, 1 lane splitting into 2 lanes at the junction type layouts.

Or should i say ... look left, look right ...floor it junctions.

as for space, most deaths in cars at junctions are on out of town roads ..
so the corner shops shouldnt be effected, those town junctions are normally controlled by lights and its idiots ignoring the lights that cause carnage.

[greenamex2]

Originally Posted by retro_msport

its idiots ignoring the lights that cause carnage.

Yeah, makes you think they would invent traffic light cameras that catch people jumping them.

Oh, they have, they just don't bother installing or using them because traffic light jumping isn't 'sexy' like speeding. And I am sure the fact that the police wouldn't get a percentage of the fine has nothing to do with it.

[dtype38]

Originally Posted by retro_msport

Why is it Jaguars hunt in pairs

Only 'cos two of the three mods that cover "Racers Forum" and "Racing Technology" happen to drive em

Anyway, back to the thread....

Driving standards observers and draconian penalties for infringing the rules. Now there's a system that could be used from racing (BTW I don't count BTCC as racing). How about putting points on licences every time someone pulls out right infront of another car? Or automatic withdrawl of someones licence for a few months if they cause an accident by bad driving.