Porsche 917 vs Porsche 956/962: Which was better?

[chunterer]

Just came off the top of my head as I saw 2 diecasts being sold on ebay!!

917 was before my time, but I saw them in Historic GT's in the 80's. 956/962's I saw much more of at Silverstone and Le Mans.

Both were many in number and both highly successful with the more recent models showing better in the record books.

But which was the better car for its era and why?

[ptclaus98]

Which 917? Longtail>962>956>normal 917

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by chunterer

Just came off the top of my head as I saw 2 diecasts being sold on ebay!!

917 was before my time, but I saw them in Historic GT's in the 80's. 956/962's I saw much more of at Silverstone and Le Mans.

Both were many in number and both highly successful with the more recent models showing better in the record books.

But which was the better car for its era and why?

Trying to get thread visitor numbers up or something with these threads tonight

The 956/962 was one of the greatest sportscars ever, if not the outright greatest. It won everything a sportscar could win and was successful from the moment it first turned a wheel. Only a monstrous effort by TWR and Jaguar was able to disrupt is metronomic dominance during the 1980s. If I had a few bob, I'd have one in my stable.

[ensign14]

I vote for the 917 because it proved itself against a better class of opposition. It was up against Ferrari, Alfa Romeo, Lola. 956 was up against Lancia, Rondeau, WM. May have been different had Ford stuck with the C100 - then again Ford might well have been winning.

[KA]

As you say, the 956 was very successful against fairly limited opposition- apart from the fast-but-fragile Lancias, until Jaguar joined the game in '85, the strongest opposition came from other 956s...

On the other hand, it had a very long career as it evolved into the 962- and the opposition got much stronger- but the 962 was still capable of taking the occasional win as late as 1989, by which time it was up against the TWR Jaguars, Sauber-Mercedes, Toyota, Nissan, Aston Martin, Spice-Cosworth and Mazda

[ensign14]

But then again the 917 (or knockoffs thereof) was still competitive until 1981...the only thing that stopped it from dominating for longer was a rule change.

[Jesper OH]

A hard one to judge. The 917 had a relative short 2½ seasons at world championship level, at which the Ferrari 512 only really was opposing for 1 - and regularly beaten. Then again the 917 was a handfull on tighter and twistier tracks to the point Porsche developed the 908/3.
Then there's the Can-Am and Interserie 917 Turbos, which was another story of dominance, although their normally aspirated forerunners were simply out powered by the Chevy V8-brigade.
The 917 name was around as late as 1981 thanks to Kremer, but that particular car never seemed to be on the ultimate pace. In Can-Am the end came with stricter fuel allowences for 1974 and I really don't know when the Interserie cars disappeared, but would suspect at around the mid-1970s and probably more due to running costs.

The 956/962 enjoyed a much longer career spanning from 1982, and with a bit allowance, to 1994, with the Dauer 962 winning Le Mans. Again the car would enjoy succes in the world championship, but also in the high profiled IMSA series, but also on national level in Germany, Japan and the mainly central European Interseries again.

Different eras and difficult to measure against each other, but in one respect the 917 wins clearly over the 956/962 - Influence! When the ACO penned their Le Mans GTP rules for the latter part of the 1970s (eventually swallowed by the FIA Group C-rules), they had an eye on the iconic sports- and prototype cars of a decade before, including the 917. It doesn't take a whole lot of imagination to literrally see the 917 in the 956/962.

Jesper

[Adam43]

The 956/962 was better. It was faster, more reliable and more successful.

However the 917 was from an era when men were on the moon, supersonic passenger flight was being invented and rock was good. Even before the recent giddiness over the film and McQueen hasn't removed the general coolness. And that ignores the later iterations.

Both are great. The 917 is much more iconic.

[davyboy]

At around 4:00am I decided I'd had enough of the freak show that passed itself off as a funfair and felt the time was right for some spectating on the Mulsanne - as you do. I was fairly well tanked at the time, in fact barely able to walk would be a more apt description... nevertheless something higher was calling me and my beer. Together we waded through some thick undergrowth and trees and reached the armco. We stood there for a while and experienced 962s in a contemporary setting, at full chat, at home. The full senses experience - sight, sound and smell - is something only a real motorsport fan can truely understand. I couldn't even begin to describe it here. Momentarily I felt I sobered up and realized that this was going to be one of the greatest moments of my entire life... and it was. A few moments later, I sobered up properly [even dropped my beer] when a gendarme pulled a hand gun on me to bridge the language gap in informing that 'my chosen spectating position was unauthorized'. Illegal though it may have been, I had done the right thing. Aside from its legendary record, the events of that night have placed the 962 in a special personal place for me.

[The Fat Clerk]

917: Mark Donohue in the utimate racing machine winning the Can am series
or
956/962 memories:Stucky in the night time wet @ Le Mans, taking 30 seconds a lap out of the eventual winning Jaguar.
Stucky going through Woodcote sideways on his pole winning lap,
Stefan Bellof smashing the outright circuit record @ the Ring.

[porsche962fan]

my vote goes to the 956/962C

Simply it had a career lasting 13 years and it actually made money for porsche considering how many they sold to private temas. Anyone who had the cash could buy a 956/962 and go for overall race wins

[davyboy]

The other thing about both of these sports cars is that they had contemporary F1 drivers behind the wheel in period, something you rarely get these days... more's the pity.

[porsche91722]

For no other reason than the following, the 917 gets my vote.
Back in 1969 , when I was actually young, the 917's arrived on the scene, and after a few teething problems, turned sports car racing upside down with their success. We all know the story, so I don't have to go into it again. Then, McQueen did his movie, and that just cemented the legend for me. The fact that Ferrari couldn't get their act together, with the 512, which was fundamentally a great car in its own right, probably made the job a lot easier for Porsche and the 917. Then, of course, they had their first win at Le Mans in 1970 and the legend was born. We only really saw them for the two years in their original competition format ('70 & '71) before the rule changes.
As for the 956/962, on results and longevity, they should be classed as being more successful, but logic doesn't come into this.

[chunterer]

There's the rub in a way: rules changes arguably prevented the 917 from an equally long and successful career, well I doubt it would've been 13 years but it would've been longer at WC level than 2-3 anyway.

However it is really which was the better car in it's own right than which was the more successful that i'd like us to continue to debate here.

[nobster]

I have to go for the 917, have it's engine sound at full throttle as my mobile ringtone. what a gorgeous peace of work that car was. I remember two or three years ago in the paddock at Le mans there was a replica of the 917 in Gulf colours in front of the Barazi Motorhome.

[SeanBlue]

The 917 was the product of a rules change at the beginning of 1968 by the FIA, but what a beauty Porsche produced. Great article on it here: http://www.racefanstv.com/news/sport...n-lemans/8460/

[davyboy]

Strictly speaking all of you who voted for the 917 are wrong... and you know you are The question was which was better. The answer is that the 956/962 is a much better car. Put the pair of them through a back to back test and the 956/962 will wipe the floor with its predecessor in every way which is what you'd expect from a decade of progress.

The obvious needs to be pointed out from time to time you know

[Andy77]

I seem to remember interviews with drivers of the 917 in which it stated that the 917 was next to be undriveable. In this regard I think "next to be undriveable" from a regular driver of a car means more like "the margin for mistakes is rather small"

From interviews and books about Stefan Bellof, Derek Bell and H-J Stuck I seem to remember that they quite liked the 956 and never said something like some 917 drivers above.

When I weigh both against it each other it has to be the 956/962.

[porsche91722]

The early 917's were not popular, but once they sorted out the rear deck modifications, the car was a lot more driveable.
Derek Bell seemed pretty happy with the 917-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=resu77vBKm0
To pick the better/successful car can never be agreed on - different eras, different rules. The 917 only really had two & a bit years to show its stuff in the category (where it was completely dominant). I prefer to look at the 956, as an evolution of the 917

[ensign14]

Originally Posted by davyboy

Strictly speaking all of you who voted for the 917 are wrong... and you know you are The question was which was better. The answer is that the 956/962 is a much better car. Put the pair of them through a back to back test and the 956/962 will wipe the floor with its predecessor in every way which is what you'd expect from a decade of progress.

Which one set the faster outright lap speed?

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by ensign14

Which one set the faster outright lap speed?

Probably the 917 around the old Spa Francorchamps ? I wonder what speed a trimmed 962 would have done it in though.

[ensign14]

Woulda, coulda, shoulda.

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by davyboy

Probably the 917 around the old Spa Francorchamps ? I wonder what speed a trimmed 962 would have done it in though.

Would've been good to see either of these things bombing through the Masta Kink!!!!!

917 would sound significanrtly better though i'll venture?

[John Turner]

My heart goes with the 917, but my head with the 956/962. As Davyboy says the later car has to be a more effective machine; technology and development never stands still. To me though the 917 is probably the most iconic closed sports racing car ever built.

[KA]

I agree it's maybe a head v heart thing- I'd guess it's also very tied in with your own personal memories and nostalgia. I never saw 917s in period- I think the first time I saw one was probably the Corgi toy longtail I had as a kid...
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_6peztR6_A9...orgiP917-1.jpg
....or in the Steve McQueen film on the telly. I've only ever seen the real thing on static display, or driven at 9/10ths or less in historics.

Sportscars on a personal level- by which I mean actually standing trackside and watching a race- began for me with the 956.

My first sportscar race (and the second race meeting I'd ever been to apart from some local club autocross and grasstrack) was the 1985 Silverstone 1000km. I spent the next weekend building the model kit of Richard Lloyd's Canon Porsche that I'd bought at Silverstone, and I've been hooked ever since
http://www.flickr.com/photos/antsphoto/2355374132/

As John and Davyboy said, in purely practical terms, the 956/962 is now the more effective racing machine, in the same way that improvements in technology have made the R15 and 908 more effective than either, but the 917 probably edges it as an icon of it's era.

Of course, the 917 is helped helped in that respect by a couple of things- that aforementioned McQueen film, and the fact that I don't think I ever remember a 962 in a certain pale blue and orange colourscheme...

Whichever is your favourite though, they're probably two of the most important racing cars ever- the 917 as one of the ultimate expressions of what was possible under the regs of the time, and the 956/962 because it really was the backbone of the sport during one of its' great periods- the car that was raced by everyone from the factory and Joest to Antoine Salamin and Tim Lee-Davey