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Old 25 Aug 2015, 01:32 (Ref:3568457)   #436
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Simply awful, Wilson has died! RIP Justin!

http://www.indystar.com/story/sports...rash/32301639/
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Old 25 Aug 2015, 02:13 (Ref:3568469)   #437
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I think it is time to start with a new set rules for Indy Car.(move on from the open cockpit era in the same way dirt track cars pull cages on.
There are safety cells like the DTM. one
http://www.eurocarnews.com/0/0/1810/...standards.html
Indy Car 2 : control e-cell designed and built to the best standards (The people who constructed the Comanche super maxi race yacht could build the cells). Rear engine, transaxle. (allow future conversion to hybrid/ full electric).

More advanced engine (rear location) so as not to be a competitor to nascar.
Models aligned to sportscar rather than car models nascar is aligned to.
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Old 25 Aug 2015, 02:21 (Ref:3568472)   #438
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Originally Posted by GHOGH View Post
I think it is time to start with a new set rules for Indy Car.(move on from the open cockpit era in the same way dirt track cars pull cages on.
There are safety cells like the DTM. one
http://www.eurocarnews.com/0/0/1810/...standards.html
Indy Car 2 : control e-cell designed and built to the best standards (The people who constructed the Comanche super maxi race yacht could build the cells). Rear engine, transaxle. (allow future conversion to hybrid/ full electric).

More advanced engine (rear location) so as not to be a competitor to nascar.
Models aligned to sportscar rather than car models nascar is aligned to.
Quite frankly, I don't agree with any of that.
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Old 25 Aug 2015, 10:24 (Ref:3568573)   #439
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I'm sure this has been asked before but the two biggest questions with any form of canopy are going to be, will this affect the driver's view from the cockpit and exit from the car if there is a crash, especially if the car rolls over?
The technologies are there as I've argued in this section before. Companies that design and produce cockpits for military aircraft have the expertise.
Shatter mechanism based on squids built with the cockpit material.
In the garage, cockpit open and or a big obvious safety pin in one of three location either side of the intake and on top of the safety cell. Cockpit latch shut and Removal of pin(s) sets a first stage in the arming, this would be race mode.
Multi input to second stage of arming mechanism ( g-meter, gyrostabiser detecting rollover, driver in cockpit control).
Triggering the squibs, Is effectively stage three, and can only happen when in stage two. Triggering can be done by driver, or by marshals. Trigger points on outside of car next to safety pin location on either side of engine intake and on top of safety cell like the neutral buttons.
There would be visible indicators as to which stage the mechanism is in.
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Old 25 Aug 2015, 14:07 (Ref:3568616)   #440
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The FIA are reported to be working on an alternative to closed cockpits. This new idea involves the use of blades to deflect things away from the cockpit.

http://uk.motorsport.com/f1/news/fia...-cockpit-tests
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Old 25 Aug 2015, 15:04 (Ref:3568632)   #441
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im glad they have been thinking about it but at some point the concept has to move beyond the theoretical/drawing board and tried in the world.

a crazy idea, but FOM/FIA should buy up the next team that goes bust and start running it as a development lab. im sure they already have the ability to simulate and vet these ideas to a great deal but this strikes me as a concept that requires lots of real world testing and live during a GP weekend doesnt seem like the place to do that.
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Old 25 Aug 2015, 16:16 (Ref:3568651)   #442
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Originally Posted by wolfhound View Post
The FIA are reported to be working on an alternative to closed cockpits. This new idea involves the use of blades to deflect things away from the cockpit.

http://uk.motorsport.com/f1/news/fia...-cockpit-tests
I think it's fine to try out various ideas, but I hope we are not starting to see analysis paralysis and the inability to make a decision. It frankly feels like going through the motions just to answer the concerns of critics.

I get why they don't want a 100% enclosed cockpit (hence the "blade" concept), but each has it's own pros and cons. They have an artist concept of the blade solution on that page above and I can imagine it solving some current issues, but not all of them. For example I can't see a blade system helping Senna or Massa given it was small items doing cockpit intrusion. It might or might not have helped Wilson, De Villota or Bianchi. It's unfortunate that there are so many examples to pick from.

I am also curious as to what the testing procedure for the blade system will be. Prior FIA tests appeared to focused 100% on a full tire which is a problem but honestly the problem is much more than large bulky items.

Frankly I suspect the blade concept or a short windscreen is just not going to solve the problem to an adequate level given the amount of effort required to make the change.

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Old 25 Aug 2015, 16:16 (Ref:3568652)   #443
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The Merc concept looks interesting, and despite its odd looks I think I could adjust quite easily to it. It only does the job for larger objects though.

If fully enclosed cockpits are to happen, why not just go the whole hog and have an LMP style cockpit with entry doors on each side? All the solutions suggested so far are attempting to preserve something about the shape and form of F1 cars, but I'd argue this has changed often enough to be irrelevant; sweeping bars or blades around the cockpit don't do much for the aesthetic anyway.
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Old 25 Aug 2015, 20:55 (Ref:3568703)   #444
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The Merc concept, might work for large objects travelling at head height towards the cockpit, but the airflow of cars tends to throw objects up into the air so is coming down at an angle. This concept and the "halo" before it leaves the opening that the driver climbs through, still very exposed. Especially to debris at that downward angle.

Pirenzo, there are many on here that seem to think that adding an enclosed cockpit will as if by magic turn F1 cars into LMP cars. For me LMP = roof and doors, I don't want to see either on a formula car.

Personally I think there is room for a whole new generation (moving forward) of Formula cars built around enclosed safety cells, whether they be common to specific formula, or shared ...an obvious choice might be GP2 and World Series 3.5 using the same safety cell.
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Old 25 Aug 2015, 21:00 (Ref:3568705)   #445
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Doesnt it go back to the old adage..
"Motor racing is dangerous"
Im in agreement with all safety, but, as Martin Brundle said last weekend, JB will not be the last driver to be killed while racing.
You can put in place all safety aspects, but, the one off tragic accident will still occur.
Its all so sad, but so was Senna, so was the others. It will never stop, and by covering drivers entirely, is imprisoning them in a potential coffin if upside down.
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Old 25 Aug 2015, 23:29 (Ref:3568742)   #446
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I'm sure this has been asked before but the two biggest questions with any form of canopy are going to be, will this affect the driver's view from the cockpit and exit from the car if there is a crash, especially if the car rolls over?
What I suggested before BJ, was an air powered ram situated behind the drivers seat that could be operated either by the driver or from outside the cockpit.
Think of a large bottle jack placed behind the seat that can be used to effectively jack the canopy off the car. This would aid in righting an upside down car or pushing a car with a trapped driver off another object.

The actual ram would be like an on board air jack; but with its own air supply; like those used to lift the saloon cars for wheel changes. A regulator would be installed to control the extension speed upon triggering the system..

Earlier in this thread we went over hydrophobic and self cleaning glass, undoubtedly an area which would benefit from F1 involvement.
Could probably engineer a tear off type system too.
Current WEC cars run just fine with windshields in much longer races, and the F1 hydroplanes use windscreens just fine, as posted above, so I don't think that the problems are insurmountable!
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Old 26 Aug 2015, 00:11 (Ref:3568748)   #447
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What I suggested before BJ, was an air powered ram situated behind the drivers seat that could be operated either by the driver or from outside the cockpit.
Think of a large bottle jack placed behind the seat that can be used to effectively jack the canopy off the car. This would aid in righting an upside down car or pushing a car with a trapped driver off another object.

The actual ram would be like an on board air jack; but with its own air supply; like those used to lift the saloon cars for wheel changes. A regulator would be installed to control the extension speed upon triggering the system..

Earlier in this thread we went over hydrophobic and self cleaning glass, undoubtedly an area which would benefit from F1 involvement.
Could probably engineer a tear off type system too.
Current WEC cars run just fine with windshields in much longer races, and the F1 hydroplanes use windscreens just fine, as posted above, so I don't think that the problems are insurmountable!
How big would the air bottle need to be and is there enough room on board the car to fit one?

CART previously and now IndyCar use an air-jack to raise the car during pistops but the air comes from an outside source as there isn't the room for an air bottle.
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Old 26 Aug 2015, 06:02 (Ref:3568822)   #448
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Why don't they just use a windscreen or something? Sure, as soon as something hits it it'll probably break, but that may end up slowing down said object to a speed that perhaps none of these deaths would have occurred and it wasn't fast enough to go through the helmet. As long as it doesn't shatter itself and send plastic all into the visor.

Or perhaps a stronger helmet material?

That fin design above looks ridiculous and all I can see is a big object right in the drivers line of sight.

A rollcage around the head is going to look silly as well.

Ultimately, motorsports is and always will be dangerous. Turning single seaters into enclosed cockpits and therefore basically making them WEC; well didn't a WEC driver die a year or two ago, one of the Aston Martin drivers... I can die tomorrow driving to work, heck I very nearly had a crash today by some idiot turning across me and me being impatient. Maybe we should just stay as is, but try to minimise the symptoms of this happening. More debris detection, quicker yellows.

JW's accident was a freak accident and there was no way JW was going to slow down in time. But Indycar has a problem with these big ovals. This was another one with seven wide cars and extremely high speed crashes, where the cars are running too fast and too close to each other. JW may have been able to avoid the debris better if it wasn't a high speed oval. Some of the crashes in that race happened far too easily, a tiny interruption of cornering, or lack of grip like Helio and your hard into the wall. Kimball's accident in practise could have had far worse results.

I was watching the highlights from JW's last win at Texas in 2012, and noticed how strung out the field was, like it used to be Indycar lately has extremely close oval racing. That race at Pocono easily set a new record for lead changes. Good for spectators, but perhaps too dangerous...
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Old 26 Aug 2015, 08:23 (Ref:3568849)   #449
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I wonder if Justin Wilson even saw the piece of debris, as he would have been preoccupied with avoiding Sage Karam's car, as it slid down the track?
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Old 26 Aug 2015, 10:18 (Ref:3568865)   #450
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How big would the air bottle need to be and is there enough room on board the car to fit one?

CART previously and now IndyCar use an air-jack to raise the car during pistops but the air comes from an outside source as there isn't the room for an air bottle.
At its crudest BJ, you could use two telescoping tubes about a meter long by 75mm 39" x 3") in diameter. On activation the one tube would slide out of the other forming a total length just shy of 2 meters. If the ram was run at 45 bar at full extension it would move a 2000kg object. It should easily to make the ram self contained with the reservoir in the smaller cylinder, this would mean that the reservoir is extremely well protected.
The car would have to be modified to accept a 75mm cylinder 1000mm upright behind the driver's seat.
Plus canopy.

Oxy acetylene set's oxygen cylinder runs at about 140 bar.
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