Montoya should LEAVE Mclaren, sooner or later..

[Menelaos]

Probably because they were by far better? I believe, again, that if JPM went better than Kimi, McLaren would favor him.

[Don K]

Originally Posted by Menelaos

Probably because they were by far better?

There was not much difference.

Looking at the number of seasons they beat their opponent, iirc:

Raikkonen - Coulthard 2-1
Hakkinen - Coulthard 4-2
Hakkinen - Blundell 1-0
Hakkinen - Brundle 1-0
Hakkinen - Senna 0-1

[Adam43]

Not much difference? Bless those simple statistics Don K! Do you think Mika and David are not much different then?

[senna12]

Juan would be crazy to leave. Now that their facilities are complete and everyone is concentrating on the task at hand, the car is excellent. If he had not been injured, and was closer to Kimi in points, the team would not be behaving this way.

[Menelaos]

yeah, I'm afraid "4-2" doesn't mean very much. For example the 4 could all be "20-0" and the 2 could be "9-11", so that adds up to "98-22". I don't say that's how it is, I just mean that such stats say very little, if anything at all.

[Don K]

Originally Posted by AdamAshmore

Not much difference? Bless those simple statistics Don K! Do you think Mika and David are not much different then?

Yes, I do.

Mika had more race wins.
But David had more podiums, and more points (even if we take into acount the number of races).

Mika did beat David during more seasons than David beat Mika.
But Mika was a couple of years older.
And Mika had a couple of years more experience in F1.
And Mika had a couple of years more experience at McLaren.

[Menelaos]

I don't think I agree. My point is, I remember at least two seasons when Mika was going for the win and pushed his car so hard it eventually had problems so he would retire often. At the same time, DC was running an uneventful race, with more fuel and a strategy to bring him in the points or podium at best. So, when they're aiming for different things, they take different risks. Their setup is different. Their engines are setup differently. And Mika's engine would fail 3 times more often. So, I don't think this kind of statistics really helps.

[Andrew2001]

Originally Posted by Kicking-back

I think you're talking absolute nonsense.

JPM was hoisted by his own petard today, as he has been all season really.

His McLaren drive is a better prospect than anything else on the grid realistically.

It will come good!

Absolutely.
It will come good. Since I started watching this game (1996), I've always been a McLaren fan, and a big fan of Mika and Kimi and hte other Mika, but if Kimi went to Ferrari and Schumacher went to McLaren I'd support the german in the McLaren, thats how much I wanna see Montoya win races and beat Kimi on some occasions too.
He is building, he is almost ready to do the business at the front. Ron is slowly, but surely, bringing out the best in him, which is what Williams failed to achieve.
He'll win races this year, and he may even close the gap up to Kimi in the championship, one thing is for sure, Kimi did not have the pace that Montoya had at Canada. And even tho Kimi did the job, and I was overjoyed, I was equally gutted that Montoya didn't get the win as well.

Ron runs his team better than anyone else in the field in my view, just look at the quality of drivers he has produced driving his cars over the years since he took over in 1981.
It will indeed come good for Juan Pablo soon.

[freud]

Originally Posted by Lucylu

Mclaren are boring..not only do there colours suggest that but the whole image of the team does..perhapes there is real happiness inside the team but it certainly doesnt come across that way
and it is clear to me the Ron Dennis does favour the Finns - both of them. over his other drivers

Agreed.

Now I can understand that most people (including those roaming around here on the 10-10ths) dont like looking at the big picture. They live in the 'moment'. To them, JPM is in the best car.. boom, stop thinking, just drive your ass off. Problem is that things dont really work so simply in the comples world of formula-one. Someone like me have actually been in the paddock, working alongwith drivers, team-owners and staff. When Schumacher won that brilliant race at a wet Monaco track in 1997, I was there observing that phenomenal drive. Etc etc (I really dont want to brag..)

Anyway, its clear that Kimi is the apple of Ron's eye. Period. There is an emotional bond which will haunt JPM as long as Kimi is his teammate. Really, JPM is in a very difficult situation, emtionally as well as practically. To top it off, he's overweight and he talks too much...

I am not saying 'Juan, LEAVE Mclaren', but, 'Juan, if you want to remain a Mac driver, be careful, get points and drive sensibly.. otherwise you will end up becoming a roleplayer like DC'. As simple as that.

[lookleft]

All very passionate and noble freud but where can he go?

How does that saying go ... "As you make your bed, so you must lie in it.."

To suggest he has any better options seems daft given your self proclaimed knowledge of the inner workings of F1. As much as DC might bang on about his McLaren days now he didn't seem too concerned at the salary and wins he picked up at the time.

Short sighted.

[thejester]

Lookleft, i diin't get from freud's post that he DID suggest that JPM had better options. In fact I thought he said the opposite.

Kimi will obviously have a stronger bond, as he's been there longer. Watch how close Ron and JPM get when he starts winning races regularly. That's the key, as freud says. Bad luck and bad decision making have given Montoya a nightmare first half to his debut year at McLaren. If he can overcome it, it might just be the making of him.

McLaren have a potentially dominant pairing for the next few years, if they give them the car to do it. But the worst kind of potential is the unfulfilled kind.

[lookleft]

Originally Posted by freud

......
My advise to JPM.. leave Mclaren sooner than later. Look for other avenues.. BAR is getting better, Williams might be interested, Renault will probably not have Fisi next year...

Just suggesting that the silver car is a better option than any of the suggestions. JPM is going to be JPM no matter what team he is with.

[Don K]

Originally Posted by Menelaos

I don't think I agree. My point is, I remember at least two seasons when Mika was going for the win and pushed his car so hard it eventually had problems so he would retire often. At the same time, DC was running an uneventful race, with more fuel and a strategy to bring him in the points or podium at best. So, when they're aiming for different things, they take different risks. Their setup is different. Their engines are setup differently. And Mika's engine would fail 3 times more often. So, I don't think this kind of statistics really helps.

What you are saying is that Hakkinen had a driving style which would bring him more wins, less podiums, and less points than Coulthard.

Which is perfectly in line with these statistics.

[Glen]

I tyhink Montoya would be crazy to leave McLaren - his time will come. Who knows - maybe this time next year Kimi will be in a Ferrari and JPM will be number one at McLaren.

[Menelaos]

Originally Posted by Don K

What you are saying is that Hakkinen had a driving style which would bring him more wins, less podiums, and less points than Coulthard.

Actually I'm saying that Mika had a style which would bring him the title or nothing, while DC concentrated on being in the top pilots of the year, so he just did a steady job with not much risk

[chunterer]

Yeah Mika was a balls to the wall style of driver on the days when he was in contention, whereas DC has always been that little bit more careful.

However, comparitively speaking both current Macca drivers are in the same mould i would have thought?

I think Glen has a very good point...'what if' Kimi moves to Ferrari to replace Schu and Monster has Macca all to himself?

I have a suspicion that when he signed his contract in 2003 there must have been some kind of extra carrots being offered to Juan, other than the 'come on Juan you won't get so aggravated with us as you do with Williams' sort of thing because at the time the new Macca was a bit rubbish, compared to the older car they were using.

What if Ron was suggesting that he wanted him as longer term team leader etc, etc, because there's no doubt that Ron had decided he just had to have him in the team.

I suppose he also thought he was signing the soon to be 2003 WDC though?!

[Kicking-back]

I would be VERY surprised if Kimi was not in a McLaren next year.

[climb]

JPM will be replaced when Lewis Hamilton is ready to take an F1 seat.
Unless he goes earlier...

[chunterer]

Erm....is that based on him having a driver development contract with them by any chance?

Didn't Heidfeld have some kind of mentoring thing with them though....

[Menelaos]

I don't think Kimi would leave McLaren for Ferrari. That would be extremely surprising to me

[Glen]

I don't think he will, but there again I wouldn't rule it out. The big "if" is over Schumacher - when he quits anything could happen, including Kimi going to Ferrari. I very much doubt that there is a single driver out there that wouldn't take top drive at Ferrari if they could get it. Bridgestone won't be on the back foot for ever, or even for very long.