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Old 25 Aug 2001, 21:38 (Ref:135841)   #1
Ralf's Girl
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Interesting comparisons

I bought this week's issue of Autosport today, and I found the short piece about how powerful F1 engines are to be quite interesting. For those who haven't seen it, this is how it looks:

BMW qualifying: 854bhp
BMW race: 838bhp

Mercedes qualifying: 845bhp
Mercedes race: 829bhp

Ferrari qualifying: 839bhp
Ferrari race: 833bhp

Honda qualifying: 829bhp
Honda race: 814bhp

Cosworth qualifying: 819bhp
Cosworth race: 807bhp

Petronas qualifying: 814bhp
Petronas race: 802bhp

Renault qualifying: 752bhp
Renault race: 744bhp


Are those comparisons surprising to anyone? The only surprise in there for me is that the Ferrari qualifying engine, at 839bhp, is less powerful than the Mercedes engine. And the gap between Renault and everybody else is absolutely staggering.
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Old 25 Aug 2001, 22:02 (Ref:135856)   #2
JeremySmith
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Very interesting RG thank you.... That is why Michael Schumacher is the man!
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Old 25 Aug 2001, 22:06 (Ref:135860)   #3
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Oh, you be quiet you...you...you..........er....you...

*Steph sighs and exits thread*
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Old 25 Aug 2001, 23:32 (Ref:135891)   #4
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great facts RG . but you & me new this already right . RALF & BMW what a team

but gee his bro is great itsn't he


really looking forward to SPA MS fav track & a big speed advantage to RALF looks a great race
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Old 26 Aug 2001, 01:03 (Ref:135919)   #5
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Alan Jones should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
and don't forget Juan, the other member of the Williams team
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Old 26 Aug 2001, 01:19 (Ref:135924)   #6
JeremySmith
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Originally posted by Ralf's Girl
Oh, you be quiet you...you...you..........er....you...

*Steph sighs and exits thread*

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Old 26 Aug 2001, 01:31 (Ref:135926)   #7
Gt_R
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Gt_R should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridGt_R should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Mercedes qualifying horsepower isnt really a big surprise or doubt really. And i think that what Mclaren suffered from is more of a difficult car to set up and reliability with its start control, and the idea of the Merce being a pitiful engine is really exaggerating. Not the best to BMW...but up there with the Ferrari at least. Mika had managed to grab 3rd at powertrack Hockenheim...the best after the BMWs...showing that the Merce-quals is no weakling in power. But the race...well...even the Ferrari's could overtake them like no tomorrow there...so i guess the Merce engine is hugely detuned in race-trim for reliability.

Renault. Consider the power of the BMW rumoured to be at least 10bhp more than even the next competitor......Renault in 2nd? Sure, i think the Renault has a strong bhp...but i was thinking more along the Honda-Cosworth range...

and regarding Jersound's comment...YES, Michael's the man!

It seems like Ralf would have exclusive use of an improved and updated chassis in Spa, as rumoured earlier in the month... so if JPM gives Ralf a whipping there... Ralf better had an excuse to come up with!~
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Old 26 Aug 2001, 02:01 (Ref:135932)   #8
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So hang on, if last years (2000) Ferrari spec engine in that Sauber is 802 BHP, that means they are getting about 30 BHP per season?

So next year we'll be well on the way towards 900BHP?

Last edited by Sodemo; 26 Aug 2001 at 02:02.
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Old 26 Aug 2001, 05:02 (Ref:135957)   #9
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LYM should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
It was quite clear from the start of the season that Ferrari is not as fast as the McLarens and Williams in straight line speed. But then no one matches the Italian when it comes to corners. Macs traced its superiority from the 1998 Ilmor revolution, and I expect Ferrari to catch up next year.

Unless Mosley goes ahead with the clamp down on engine power, which is a shame, we will definitely be seeing a 900 bhp car next season.
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Old 26 Aug 2001, 09:08 (Ref:135987)   #10
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Re: Interesting comparisons

Quote:
Originally posted by Ralf's Girl
And the gap between Renault and everybody else is absolutely staggering.
Does anybody have a clue about the power of the Asiatech and European engines?
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Old 26 Aug 2001, 10:06 (Ref:135995)   #11
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Gt_R should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridGt_R should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Being really interested in engine-bhp... i have sourced the whole web upside down for those pathetic digits...and did researches from many sources. i have came up with a list of engine bhps which i believed very much in. I used it in my GP3 and was quite impressed that 5 engine figures came pretty close to that...

I just thought it won't hurt sharing with people here...but dont bomb me if i say anything which do not coincide with what you think.



*takes a deep breathe*

From most powerful to least...the nominees are...*drum rolls*

BMW: Q 855 R 840
Mercedes: Q 845 R 830
Ferrari: Q 842 R 832
Honda: Q 827 R 820
Cosworth: Q 822 R 812
Petronas: Q 817 R 810
Acer: Q 812 R 802
Renault: Q 802 R 782
Asiatech: Q 800 R 795
European: Q 780 R 770

This is what i collected and as per after British GP.

The gaps between engines are not very much exact. As the horsepower of engines actually vary between between races, and some are based on ideal engine horsepower, while some figures are based on the usable horsepower (the horsepower the car actually usefully put to the road after transmission, gearbox powerloss). But it should give a rough idea...

The Renault qualifying engine is a big unknown. There is totally no information regarding it. But it is not known to be that weak a powerplant, especially its new qualifying engine. The race engine is highly detuned in order to gain the reliability.

As for Petronas having a higher bhp than Acer, which is basically the same based on '00 Ferrari 049B engine as used in Monza. Ferrari had provided both teams with an engine update with a few new parts, with a small hike in bhp of around 1%. Sauber is known to have engineers who work on the Petronas engine themselves to "improvise" it, the same engineers who work on Sauber's engine project just about 4 years ago.

Last edited by Gt_R; 26 Aug 2001 at 10:10.
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Old 26 Aug 2001, 12:13 (Ref:136021)   #12
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Quote:
Originally posted by AlanJones
and don't forget Juan, the other member of the Williams team
I'm sorry, who?

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Old 26 Aug 2001, 12:59 (Ref:136039)   #13
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Maxmil should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
No matter which set of figures you use, (They are really very close, at least at the top of the list.) the significant point is pretty clear: It's a two tier system with three strong competitors at the top, two or three midrankers and some distant back markers. The champion is likely to be the team that does the best at getting everything else right. For the moment, this is unquestionably Ferrari who certainly have a competitive, but not superlative, engine to start with. The status quo seems likely to continue unless McLaren and Williams can improve the chassis, drivers and pitwork.
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Old 26 Aug 2001, 16:47 (Ref:136105)   #14
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Originally posted by AlanJones
and don't forget Juan, the other member of the Williams team
Do you realy think Juan is the reason that the Williams isn't performing as good as its engine?
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Old 26 Aug 2001, 20:49 (Ref:136146)   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by Don K
Do you realy think Juan is the reason that the Williams isn't performing as good as its engine?
I must be missing something here Don, seemed to me all the posts before my post were just talking about Ralfie and Williams.Where do I say anything about Williams not performing as well as the BMW powerplant? Hmmmnnn, NOWHERE. My point was there are 2 drivers in the team , not 1.
Have a nice day Don
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Old 26 Aug 2001, 21:00 (Ref:136152)   #16
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Taken from http://www.tsn.ca/geralddonaldson/a...sp?notes=062901

Quote:
850: Williams BMW - made by BMW in Germany
835: Ferrari - made by Ferrari in Italy
825: McLaren Mercedes - made by Ilmor Engineering in the UK
825: Jaguar Cosworth - made by Cosworth Engineering (owned by Ford, as is Jaguar) in the UK
810: Sauber Petronas, Prost Acer - last year's Ferrari engines upgraded and still maintained by Ferrari in Italy
795: Bar Honda, Jordan Honda - made by Honda in Japan
770: Arrows Asiatech - last year's (Prost) Peugeot engines upgraded and maintained by Asiatech in France
770: Minardi European - 1999 Cosworth engines (from the Stewart team) upgraded by European Racing and maintained by Langford Engineering in the UK
720: Renault (Benetton) - made in France
I think this ranking reflects better what the results show on the tracks.

Alan Jones. Be careful with Don K. Seems to be that the truth is too hurtfull for him...LOL
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Old 26 Aug 2001, 21:09 (Ref:136158)   #17
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Old 26 Aug 2001, 23:46 (Ref:136225)   #18
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Ray Bell should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
The initial list, if correct (and I don't know that they exactly release the figures, do they? And individual engines would vary by as much as 20hp, I would think?), brings about a reflection on the same position that existed in the late thirties...

Two German makes with an Italian next in the list. Difference those days was there were German and Italian drivers to the forefront in German cars...

British cars were, of course, bit players.
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Old 27 Aug 2001, 01:03 (Ref:136250)   #19
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Speed should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally posted by Gt_R
It seems like Ralf would have exclusive use of an improved and updated chassis in Spa, as rumoured earlier in the month... so if JPM gives Ralf a whipping there... Ralf better had an excuse to come up with!~
Innovation doesn´t mean better performance (well, not all the time), so Ralf will have an excellent excuse...

Go, Go, Go Formula Juan !
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Old 27 Aug 2001, 05:50 (Ref:136293)   #20
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Originally posted by AlanJones


I must be missing something here Don, seemed to me all the posts before my post were just talking about Ralfie and Williams.Where do I say anything about Williams not performing as well as the BMW powerplant? Hmmmnnn, NOWHERE. My point was there are 2 drivers in the team , not 1.
Have a nice day Don
OK, I'll explain:

First, Ralf's Girl posts:
Quote:
BMW q 854bhp, r 838bhp
Mercedes q 845bhp, r829bhp
Ferrari q 839bhp, r 833bhp
...
The only surprise in there for me is that the Ferrari qualifying engine, at 839bhp, is less powerful than the Mercedes engine.
So the BMW engine is stronger than its rivals.

Ralfanator posts:
Quote:
RALF & BMW what a team
but gee his bro is great itsn't he
So Michael is doing very fine: His engine is less powerfull than his rivals' engine, yet he manages to beat them on track.
After that, with Ralf & BMW fighting for second place, they are performing like they should.

Your post:
Quote:
and don't forget Juan, the other member of the Williams team
So you say we have to consider Juan, fighting for 5th place.
Well, this season he is beaten by his team mate, having the same engine.
He is beaten by both Ferrari drivers, who are using a weaker engine.
He is beaten by one McLaren driver, and still trailing the other one, who are also using a weaker engine.

So you were asking us to have a look at a driver who for some reason is not yet performing as good as his car, just when we had been looking at his stronger team mate.
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Old 27 Aug 2001, 05:57 (Ref:136294)   #21
Don K
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Be careful with Don K. Seems to be that the truth is too hurtfull for him...LOL
Well, it looks like you still don't understand!

Please read my posts again.
I told you very explicitely, I hate it when you twist somebody eles's words.

As this is the second time you are twisting my words, let me add to that:

I also hate it when you twist my words.
And I also hate it when you twist your own words (from previous posts).



As long as you try to stay honest in your posts, I won't have any problems.
But please don't start lying or twisting the truth again!
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Old 27 Aug 2001, 05:58 (Ref:136295)   #22
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Thanks for your explanation Don, as usual you are a wealth of infomation.
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Old 27 Aug 2001, 06:00 (Ref:136296)   #23
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Last edited by Alan Jones; 27 Aug 2001 at 06:02.
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Old 27 Aug 2001, 06:10 (Ref:136297)   #24
Don K
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Originally posted by AlanJones
---
Yes, I agree, all that hatred doesn't sound quite like me.

Let me put it this way:
I think BBKing is alright, but he is still young and needs some help sometimes.

I tried to do it with a subtle hint, but he didn't understand.
Then I told him explicitely what I meant, but he still didn't understand.
Now I do the same thing, using stronger words. Maybe this time he'll see what I am saying.
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Old 27 Aug 2001, 13:18 (Ref:136464)   #25
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Don K. For some reason your name sounds like something that INHO reflects what you are...LOL.

You don't like my opinions. Then do not botter reading them.Keep honest, violating rules blah blah blah. You are playing the role of moderator which you don't have. Twisting? You tell me...LOL
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