Question about three car teams

TeddyG · 25 Sep 2003, 04:56 (Ref:729363)

I was just reading an article on f1-live.com talking about the possibility of three car teams in the future, since the Concorde Agreement states there must be at least 20 cars on the grid, meaning that if one more team (possibly Minardi or Jordan) leaves F1 then each team will have to run three cars to keep up the numbers.

What I was concerned about was that the article also says that the Concorde Agreement states that the third car CANNOT score championship points??? What is the reason for this? Does this mean the car that finishes last of the three in each team during each race doesn't score points? Or does it mean that the team designates (at the beginning of the season) two drivers who will be able to score points and a third driver who just...well...drives!? This seems rather stange, anyone else heard about this rule or what it means?

ASCII Man · 25 Sep 2003, 07:06 (Ref:729428)

I think that means that the third driver can't score points for the constructor championship but can score points for the drivers championship.
That's how it goes in WRC, if i'm not mistaken...

Mr V · 25 Sep 2003, 07:14 (Ref:729431)

I believe that the reason for this is so that teams that can only field 2 cars don't lose out the chance to score constructors points. Say, for example, Ferrari, Williams and McLaren are the only teams able to field 3 teams.... 9 cars and only 8 points scoring positions. None of the other teams will get a look in at some points if none of the top 3 have no failures.

The Zuschauer · 25 Sep 2003, 07:56 (Ref:729452)

So if a team runs three cars, do they then carry along a fourth car as the t-car?

DriverT · 25 Sep 2003, 08:00 (Ref:729459)

The problem is that they've been talking about the possibility of 3-car teams for years, but it has never appeared.

twig · 25 Sep 2003, 08:34 (Ref:729482)

So, say there are two teams running 3 cars. All 3 cars of each team finish in the points. Say, Ferrari - Williams - W - W - F - F - McLaren - Renault.

If it counts for the drivers's championship, then no problem, but there are two positions in the constructors championship that do not score any points, as they are taken by the 3rd car. I dont like that idea.

The problem i see, is not only that the slower teams, and the ones who usually finish in the 6-8th region, will have a smaller chance of scoring any points, where before, they would have.

Even worse, was if the entire podium was filled with white and blue men, or red Ferrari men, or any other team for that matter.

Valve Bounce · 25 Sep 2003, 11:23 (Ref:729613)

AHA!! So this is where the rumour about Mark Webber going to Williams started.

Brandy_snap · 25 Sep 2003, 11:29 (Ref:729624)

I think that wouldn't be exactly practical (mainly for the lower teams not getting a look in), but imagine if there was 3 drivers... Ferrari, Williams and McLaren could have an even bigger fight for the title! Although would Williams have Webber or Gene for their third driver?

**Stephen Green** · 25 Sep 2003, 12:03 (Ref:729648)

See this thread from August 2003...

http://tentenths.com/forum/showthrea...threadid=42611

Hungary 89 · 25 Sep 2003, 12:04 (Ref:729650)

Twig

I don't think that is how it would work, the drivers championship points would go to the top eight drivers however the constructors champoinship points would go further down the positions

for example if Team A fields 3 cars and all 3 finished in the points then the team would only pick up points for the top 2 finishers and 9th place would now become a points scoring position for the constuctors championship only.

Glen · 25 Sep 2003, 12:07 (Ref:729656)

At an estimated $ 30 m for that third car this is unlikely to happen - thi is what is behind the idea of bailing Minardi and Jordan out in ordr to keep them going, as it is cheaper to do that than to run a third car.

twig · 25 Sep 2003, 14:24 (Ref:729776)

Sounds like a suitable idea there Hungary 89.

gttouring · 25 Sep 2003, 15:05 (Ref:729805)

i just read at F1-live.com
about 3 car teams and the "3rd" car designated- cannot score points.
so then whats the whole purpose of it? just to fill a grid and block the other teams? F1 is competition not a 'show.'
treat it as such, if you mandate 20 cars on a grid and need a few teams to put out three, then make all of them put out 3.
Ferrari, Maclaren, Williams, Renault Toyota, BAR (that's eighteen already) Jaguar, Jordan, sauber...minardows has 5 cars to enter so 3 should be no trouble.
now its a 30 car grid, glory be!

esorniloc · 25 Sep 2003, 21:57 (Ref:730211)

I guess if a team left F1 then there would only be 18 cars then the 2 highest teams in the previous years constructors championship would have to run a 3rd car.

Valve Bounce · 25 Sep 2003, 23:27 (Ref:730265)

I am surprised that it costs 30 million to run a third car. I always thought that most teams have at least 1 spare car at every race. Now if that spare car were to be given to their test/reserve driver to drive, surely that wouldn't cost that much more, would it? Then of course if the spare car was called up by one of the regular drivers for any reason, then the test/reserve driver misses out.
However, I would not suggest this as an answer to either Jordan or Minardi being allowed to go kaput. In this regard, Wrex had previously started a very interresting and realistic thread on why the minnow teams are necessary in F1.

**Adam43** · 25 Sep 2003, 23:42 (Ref:730277)

Quote:

Originally posted by Valve Bounce
I am surprised that it costs 30 million to run a third car.

That is a huge percentage of some of the lesser team's budget. They manage to run most of their team for that. Still for the big teams...

Valve Bounce · 25 Sep 2003, 23:59 (Ref:730283)

I am suggesting that it would cost the likes of Williams, McLaren or Ferrari next to nothing extra to their race and testing program to run a third car, not to mention the benefit that they could easily use the spare car for testing the latest gear.

Mark Webber · 26 Sep 2003, 00:51 (Ref:730304)

instead of 3 car teams I would prefer just having more teams

DNQ · 26 Sep 2003, 01:11 (Ref:730309)

Yeah - same here. Unlimited teams, 26 grid places, bring it on!

The Zuschauer · 26 Sep 2003, 02:10 (Ref:730359)

At the moment there's four grid places not being used, which is mainly to do with people holding onto "valuable" franchises to run teams. As far as I know, anybody planning on entering Formula One has to pay $50M, as well as buying a team licence (also valued at ludicrous amounts).

When it's looking like grid numbers are going to fall again, surely they could do something to entice new teams to join, such as reduce the ridiculous registration fee.

And what happened to the Arrows licence?

Valve Bounce · 26 Sep 2003, 03:06 (Ref:730377)

Quote:

Originally posted by Mark Webber
instead of 3 car teams I would prefer just having more teams

.............the enormous cost necesssary to put a team on the grid that could compete for the 14th and 15th places on teh grid would be enormous. To me, teh only solution for more cars is for FOCA to subsidise the bottom two teams as well as any new teams that want to compete. Just the thought of any organization wanting to cough up the money that Toyota forked out to put that team on the grid makes the mind boggle

bdhansen · 26 Sep 2003, 03:36 (Ref:730383)

With the number of young (and Yoong) drivers willing to race for free I would think that many of the existing teams could afford to run a third car if the T car was eliminated. The cost of shipping wouldn't increase (except for the tyre companies). With the one engine rule coming in soon the T car, and extra engines are becoming less important anyhow. Having an extra car running would help teams salvage a weekend when one car blows up under the one engine rule. Prehaps some of the smaller teams may elect to have guest pay drivers that can find sponsorship to get a one-off chance to prove themselves (this all plays really well into the Jordan F1-idol bit). I'm sure Red Bull would flip the bill to get an American in a few races next year. Maybe Bernie would even allow different sponsorship on a third car {Maserati badged ferrari, 555 sponsored BAR (the 1/2&1/2 one was horrid)}. Not good chances there. I think the real question is not money, but how long they can expect to be lacking teams. Is it really worth changing rules to accomodate a third car? Would putting three cars per team on the grid discourage new teams from entering? Bernie is old, but he still thinks long term.

Valve Bounce · 26 Sep 2003, 04:58 (Ref:730411)

Good post, bd.

Mr V · 26 Sep 2003, 06:08 (Ref:730444)

Quote:

Originally posted by The Zuschauer
As far as I know, anybody planning on entering Formula One has to pay $50M, as well as buying a team licence (also valued at ludicrous amounts).

I thought that it was £12 million to reserve the place, which was paid back at x ammount per month. (i.e.. the team doesn't actually lose that £12 mill)

Hungary 89 · 26 Sep 2003, 06:36 (Ref:730460)

I Think its a bit more than £12M ($30M rings a bell) but I think you're right it is a deposite paid back to the team in installments to ensure that teams entering F1 have a decent budget inplace

It was all brought in after the Lola attempted to enter F1 back in 97 (I think)

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