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Old 15 Sep 2021, 10:01 (Ref:4074045)   #241
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Originally Posted by Aysedasi View Post
I don't think he was trying to do that, was he? The use of over-emotive descriptions really doesn't help that much. The move may have been crass but to imply more is just plain daft.
Mick's words.
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Old 15 Sep 2021, 10:13 (Ref:4074047)   #242
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I think it’s Baku you are thinking of when that incident happened
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Old 15 Sep 2021, 10:13 (Ref:4074048)   #243
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Originally Posted by Teretonga View Post
Good question.
In Supercars it is the B pillar, the back of the drivers door, when you are coming in on the inside. So 'alongside' doesn't actually occur until your nose is alongside the drivers door. Until then he doesn't have to give you room.
In F1 you would need to be well alongside for peripheral vision so I'd think you'd need to to have your front wheels, at least in front of the side radiators, almost wheel to wheel.
In the context of this discussion, I think it is interesting to look at what has been removed from the regulation.

Up until 2017, the F1 Sporting Regulations contained the following statement:
'Any driver defending his position on a straight, and before any braking area, may use the full width of the track during his first move, provided no significant portion of the car attempting to pass is alongside his. Whilst defending in this way the driver may not leave the track without justifiable reason.
For the avoidance of doubt, if any part of the front wing of the car attempting to pass is alongside the rear wheel of the car in front this will be deemed to be a ‘significant portion’.'


This sat alongside the ISC that included:
'Any driver moving back towards the racing line, having earlier defended his position off-line, should leave at least one car width between his own car and the edge of the track on the approach to the corner.'

So if we were to look at an incident in the 2016 season, it seems to be that a driver can use the full track width unless another car has their front wing alongside your rear wheel (or further) up until the braking zone, at which point regardless of where another car is, if you are moving back to the racing line you have to leave a full car width.

From 2018 onwards, the definition of alongside was removed from the F1 Sporting Regulations at the same time as 'causing a collision' was added to the ISC. The effect of this is that it is now the judgement of the Stewards as to whether an attacking driver is far enough alongside that the defending driver is deemed to have caused the collision (if one occurs).

So looking at the recent T2 incident at Monza - the Stewards have determined that Verstappen was not far enough alongside going into T1 (as mentioned in their decision) and therefore Hamilton was not (predominantly) at fault for the collision in T2.

I'm not saying I agree or disagree with the decision, but I can see how it was logically reached under the current regulations.


EDIT: - lifted from another thread, I wonder if this is part of why the definition of alongside was removed because it was not situation-dependent?

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Originally Posted by Mike Harte View Post
There is a vast difference to being alongside going in to a corner if you are attempting a passing manoeuvrer on the inside to trying it on the outside. I would contend that if going down the inside then the car in front is required to at least try to make racing room or concede the corner, whilst if taking the outside route, it is your responsibility to leave the other driver racing room.
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Old 15 Sep 2021, 10:15 (Ref:4074049)   #244
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Originally Posted by wnut View Post
Mick's words.
Makes no difference. We both know that Mazepin wasn't trying to kill him.
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Old 15 Sep 2021, 10:16 (Ref:4074050)   #245
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Originally Posted by wnut View Post
There was a howler with Bottas jumping the start a while ago.
The stewards said he did not jump the start, yet the in car video evidence clearly showed he both jumped the start and did not stop again at any stage.
This would not happen in if there was more time to make the decison.

Mazepin trying to kill Mick at Monaco by turning into him on the straight as he came up to overtake is another incident that should not have esvcaped notice.

The stewards are human and time pressure and overload results in wrong decisions.

Another joke is having to bring evidence that was not available to the stewards at the time of a decision to an appeal. At times the evidence may have been available to the stewards, but they clearly did not look at it, or misinterpreted said information. This should be admissible at an appeal.
Bottas didnt jump the start per rules. theres an inbuilt lag/margin of error built into the system so while it appears he jumped the start, he didnt break the rules so they made the correct decision.

Yes stewards are human, and yes they can make errors, but more often than not they make the correct decision, however from the outside when people think theyve made the wrong decision, you are basing that on having far less information than the stewards.

Take Turn 1 for instance with Max and Lewis. A lot of people cant understand why they penalised Max. The same people dont have all of the camera angles, throttle traces, brake traces, steering traces, previous laps to compare with etc etc etc.

While their decisions can sometimes seem interesting, when you have all of the information, the nuances of an incident start to come out.
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Old 15 Sep 2021, 11:25 (Ref:4074060)   #246
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Originally Posted by ascarracinguk View Post
Bottas didnt jump the start per rules. theres an inbuilt lag/margin of error built into the system so while it appears he jumped the start, he didnt break the rules so they made the correct decision.

Yes stewards are human, and yes they can make errors, but more often than not they make the correct decision, however from the outside when people think theyve made the wrong decision, you are basing that on having far less information than the stewards.

Take Turn 1 for instance with Max and Lewis. A lot of people cant understand why they penalised Max. The same people dont have all of the camera angles, throttle traces, brake traces, steering traces, previous laps to compare with etc etc etc.

While their decisions can sometimes seem interesting, when you have all of the information, the nuances of an incident start to come out.
Hence the decisions should be documented and subject to appeal.
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Old 15 Sep 2021, 14:57 (Ref:4074092)   #247
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Originally Posted by Teretonga View Post
If people knew how much time and effort goes into making the right decision they would understand how rarely anything is a knee jerk reaction by a stewards panel, and that is just from my experience at a national level.
In F1 nothing is a knee jerk reaction.
You may disagree with some decisions as we all do but it is not s group of blokes making off the cuff decisions with no justification.
The process at F1 level is rigorous, far more so than most of the people here on ten tenths realize.
Personally, I think there doing quite a good job and improving lately. They generally have to work with rules that I mostly, but not completely agree with for reasons explained earlier. In this case however I feel the verdict is quite bizarre and as said, does provide an extremely undesirable precedent.

I'll explain further. Reread this part of the explanation they gave:
“Car 33 [Verstappen] was on the main straight. At the 50m board before Turn 1, car 44 was significantly ahead of car 33.

“Car 33 braked late and started to move alongside car 44, although at no point in the sequence does car 33 get any further forward than just behind the front wheel of car 44."


Now keep this in mind and imagine for a second that Verstappen was on the inside instead of on the outside. So the guy on the inside was significantly behind, braked late and never got any further than just behind the front wheel of the guy on the outside, but an no point left insufficient space for the outside guy. Nothing further happened and they raced jolly on. A scene we have witnessed without ever giving it a second thought a hundred times, just normal racing.

Then after a while the guy on the inside out of the blue gets a 5 second penalty....

....everyone falls off their chair and goes: ""For WHAT!?

The explanation of the for the penalty reads:
“Car 44 [Hamilton] was exiting the pits. Car 33 [Verstappen] was on the main straight. At the 50m board before Turn 1, car 44 was significantly ahead of car 33.

“Car 33 braked late and started to move alongside car 44, although at no point in the sequence does car 33 get any further forward than just behind the front wheel of car 44."


Yes, the exact same section of the explanation given by the Stewards for the Monza incident.

Do you see what I'm saying? Everyone in the paddock and everyone on this forum would have called it a bizarre verdict. However, just because Verstappen was on the outside (starting on the race line BTW), this verdict is supposed to be logical?

The very undesirable precedent set by this verdict is thus in stead of protect the more vulnerable guy (the one on the outside), this verdict does the exact opposite and poses even stricter criteria on the outside car.

In stead of promoting people having to give each other racing room for the sake of fair racing and promoting wheel to wheel battle, someone is excused by the stewards for doing the opposite.

As said, both could've avoided the crash and I understand Lewis, because Verstappen would've probably left him no room on the the exit of T2 and the stewards would've done nothing about it quite likely as this allowed to happen far too often in my book. They just should've called it a racing incident and everyone would've been fine with it and it wouldn't have set such a wrong precedent.



Also compare it to the Perez Leclerc incident in Austria and especially look at the relative wheel positions at the apex and on the exit, it's almost an exact copy regarding their wheel positions: https://youtu.be/Dm4ZmUHdXUs?t=38

Austria: inside guy gets punished.
Monza: Outside guy gets punished.

It's obviously not completely comparable, but the verdict is the exact opposite, not even middle of the road.

Last edited by Taxi645; 15 Sep 2021 at 15:07.
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Old 15 Sep 2021, 16:12 (Ref:4074102)   #248
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Originally Posted by Taxi645 View Post
Personally, I think there doing quite a good job and improving lately. They generally have to work with rules that I mostly, but not completely agree with for reasons explained earlier. In this case however I feel the verdict is quite bizarre and as said, does provide an extremely undesirable precedent.
Cut down your post for brevity, but I'll explain what I think you are missing in your reading of the verdict.
The description of entry into and through the T1 braking zone is setting up the situation for T2. It is the action(s) during T2 that the penalty was applied to.

The reference to T1 positions is (I think) to explain why 33's defence 'Car 44 opening the steering after Turn 1 and “squeezing” him to the apex of turn 2' does not hold up as sufficient reason for Car 33 to be given room on the inside of T2.

So in effect, it is the car on the inside that has been penalised - but for causing a collision, not for failing to leave room. They refer to Car 44's position (in T2) as being reasonable and that Car 33's manoeuvre was too late (in T1) to jutify racing room in T2.
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Old 15 Sep 2021, 17:13 (Ref:4074107)   #249
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FOM post footage from LH's 360 degree camera of the incident.

https://twitter.com/F1/status/1437794795192307722

obviously avoid the comments if you value your sanity.
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Old 15 Sep 2021, 17:28 (Ref:4074109)   #250
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Old 15 Sep 2021, 17:54 (Ref:4074116)   #251
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Old 15 Sep 2021, 18:29 (Ref:4074121)   #252
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Originally Posted by wnut View Post
Hence the decisions should be documented and subject to appeal.

Both of which are, plus the reasoning behind their decisions. If you look on the FIA's website, both during and after the various sessions and the race itself, the FIA updates the website with all the documents that are issued including observations of what may have transpired. These are then emailed to the relevant teams.

When any penalties have been applied, the email also includes a statement to the effect that the Stewards decisions can be appealed.
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Old 15 Sep 2021, 18:41 (Ref:4074125)   #253
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Originally Posted by Taxi645 View Post
Austria: inside guy gets punished.
Monza: Outside guy gets punished.

It's obviously not completely comparable, but the verdict is the exact opposite, not even middle of the road.

As I wrote on one of the threads yesterday, attitudes of the Stewards will be different depending on whether the overtaking move is on the inside or the outside of a corner or chicane.

More emphasis will be placed on the front driver on an inside move, and conversely, more attention to the overtaking car in an outside move.

I would contend, having raced for about 5 years, that on a normal inside overtaking manoeuvrer, and I am not talking about an outright banzai dive by the following driver, then the lead driver needs to ensure that he gives adequate space to the overtaker or actually concedes the corner, whilst in an outside move, the following driver needs to ensure that the lead car has racing room.

That is why Stewards might give different verdicts on any incident.
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Old 15 Sep 2021, 22:03 (Ref:4074137)   #254
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Originally Posted by Taxi645 View Post
Personally, I think there doing quite a good job and improving lately. They generally have to work with rules that I mostly, but not completely agree with for reasons explained earlier. In this case however I feel the verdict is quite bizarre and as said, does provide an extremely undesirable precedent.



The explanation of the for the penalty reads:
“Car 44 [Hamilton] was exiting the pits. Car 33 [Verstappen] was on the main straight. At the 50m board before Turn 1, car 44 was significantly ahead of car 33.

“Car 33 braked late and started to move alongside car 44, although at no point in the sequence does car 33 get any further forward than just behind the front wheel of car 44."


Yes, the exact same section of the explanation given by the Stewards for the Monza incident.

Do you see what I'm saying? Everyone in the paddock and everyone on this forum would have called it a bizarre verdict. However, just because Verstappen was on the outside (starting on the race line BTW), this verdict is supposed to be logical?

The very undesirable precedent set by this verdict is thus in stead of protect the more vulnerable guy (the one on the outside), this verdict does the exact opposite and poses even stricter criteria on the outside car.

They just should've called it a racing incident and everyone would've been fine with it and it wouldn't have set such a wrong precedent.



Also compare it to the Perez Leclerc incident in Austria and especially look at the relative wheel positions at the apex and on the exit, it's almost an exact copy regarding their wheel positions: https://youtu.be/Dm4ZmUHdXUs?t=38

Austria: inside guy gets punished.
Monza: Outside guy gets punished.

It's obviously not completely comparable, but the verdict is the exact opposite, not even middle of the road.

I've extracted some because its not central to the point you all need to understand'

You ask the question why are the decisions so different?
Its because every decision is made on the merits or otherwise of the incident.
That's why there is an comment on reports the the decision is based on the actual incident without regard to outcomes.

You talk about setting precedents, but you should understand that this is a judicial system, NOT a legal system.
There are NO precedents taken into account in the judgements.
One decision does not impact on all decisions ad infinitum'

You can present as many prima facie accounts and examples as you wish but none of that impacts on the decision regarding that particular incident.
That is why Red Bull's appeal on Silverstone went nowhere. It had to be fresh evidence that altered the information used in the original decision'

The FIA judicial system is to judge racing incidents across all ASN's that use their systems and principles and are affiliated with the FIA.


Adding precedents and textbook law would add impossible cost and argument to the process. Fans can argue forever but the published decisions are what they are based on each individual incident with the information the stewards have at their disposal and with hearings with the individuals involved.

They talked to both drivers, probably separately and they had their input to consider as well as every camera angle including the one presented by chillibowl.

I don't need to comment on that because I've already said as much in earlier posts.
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Old 16 Sep 2021, 06:55 (Ref:4074173)   #255
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Originally Posted by Teretonga View Post
I've extracted some because its not central to the point you all need to understand'

You ask the question why are the decisions so different?
Its because every decision is made on the merits or otherwise of the incident.
That's why there is an comment on reports the the decision is based on the actual incident without regard to outcomes.

You talk about setting precedents, but you should understand that this is a judicial system, NOT a legal system.
There are NO precedents taken into account in the judgements.
One decision does not impact on all decisions ad infinitum'

You can present as many prima facie accounts and examples as you wish but none of that impacts on the decision regarding that particular incident.
That is why Red Bull's appeal on Silverstone went nowhere. It had to be fresh evidence that altered the information used in the original decision'

The FIA judicial system is to judge racing incidents across all ASN's that use their systems and principles and are affiliated with the FIA.


Adding precedents and textbook law would add impossible cost and argument to the process. Fans can argue forever but the published decisions are what they are based on each individual incident with the information the stewards have at their disposal and with hearings with the individuals involved.

They talked to both drivers, probably separately and they had their input to consider as well as every camera angle including the one presented by chillibowl.

I don't need to comment on that because I've already said as much in earlier posts.

I'm not sure this is actually correct. In a recent controversy the FIA felt the need to explain more about how the stewarding works. In this explanation it was indicated that the stewards have at their disposal, at a touch of a button, thousands of videos of similar cases and their ruling.


So in that light it most definitely does create a precedent. Otherwise this video resource would not need to be queried.


I'll try to look it up. If I can find it.
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