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Old 8 Sep 2021, 09:40 (Ref:4072583)   #1
Mattracer
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How good is the Zandvoort circuit!!??

That is a truly great circuit- almost a mini Nurburgring. The undulation, the quick succession of interesting and quirky corners, it even has two “carousels”!! Right in the mix with Spa, Monza and Suzuka as the greatest circuits currently in use in F1. Can we have a double race on this one too?
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Old 8 Sep 2021, 10:21 (Ref:4072588)   #2
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Sodemo should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridSodemo should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridSodemo should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridSodemo should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
I think the current layout is pretty good, the only change I would make is I would make the entry to Hans Ernst Bocht a little faster and more open, the right hander just seems clumsily slow, although you might then lose a potential passing place.
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Old 8 Sep 2021, 11:40 (Ref:4072595)   #3
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Nothing compares to the old one, a great challenge, plus great for racing. The new one though is not a bad substitute, especially with two banked corners and the nicely cambered turn 1. Everyone said overtaking would be difficult, but there seemed to be enough going on. Just have to see how it suits the 2022 cars.
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Old 8 Sep 2021, 11:59 (Ref:4072597)   #4
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I like it. Yes, not a patch on the fabulous old track, but nowhere near as bad as some of the poor circuits F1 currently races at.
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Old 8 Sep 2021, 12:16 (Ref:4072600)   #5
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I always find it interesting to read comments about how good a race or track is, and wonder if there is any correlation between the perceived quality of a track and the amount of overtakes witnessed.

With credit to racefans.net, the following five GP's lap charts give a pictorial representation of overtakes.

The first chart is the Dutch GP from 2021. With an average score of 7 in the 'rate' thread, comments ranged from 'Love the Zandvoort track. Gets a seven from me.' to 'Seriously? This was a snooze fest.'

The second chart averaged an 8 in the 'rate' thread. Comments from 'Agreed – the best GP I've watched for ages' to 'However the FIA have made a farce of the race. Action on track meh'.

The third chart averaged a 4.5. Comments - 'Utterly boring.' to 'It was a good solid race.'

The fourth chart averaged an 8. Comments - 'Tactically intriguing, some decent racing and a tense finish' to 'As usual, a full hour and half is wasted doing very little in preparation for a few quick laps at the end'.

Finally, the fifth chart averaged a 2. Comments - 'My god, that was boring.' to 'Very Dull track. Very Dull race.'

When looking at lap charts, it seems strange that people were more positive towards the race that led to the third chart than the fifth. The conclusion I draw at the moment is that for ten-tenths contributors to be more content, a race needs to have:

A nice looking, 'old' track that gives an occasional overtake.
A lot of overtakes, especially if they occur in close proximity to each other in terms of race distance.
Changes of position in the top 4 or 5 places throughout a race, particularly if they occur on track not in the pits.
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Old 8 Sep 2021, 12:35 (Ref:4072602)   #6
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I think there are a few ways to look at tracks with two big ones that apply here.

1. A "drivers" perspective. How fun is it to drive. Note, this is not about racing, but about personal enjoyment

2. A "fans" perspective. Does it produce an exciting race.

Of course there are other aspects such as how close to facilities such as hotels, restaurants, etc. Does the local infrastructure support race weekend traffic (is it a nightmare to drive to and find parking), etc.

I think to #1 it has to be a winner. Lots of unique corners, elevation changes, etc. What is not to like.

Regarding #2, I think the jury is still out. Especially with respect to F1. The track is narrow. I think there was a lot of variability in how teams and drivers attacked the track this past weekend, but I think that is mostly due to lack of prior data. For example while most everyone was trying the high line on that one corner, a few were trying to make the low line work. It could be that eventually everyone just realizes that the low line just never really works. So then everyone just uses the same line there and any excitement goes away (from a spectator perspective as there may not be any passing there). That is just one example.

Overall, somewhat promising from this one F1 race. We need more examples to see if there continues to be positive experience.

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Old 8 Sep 2021, 14:09 (Ref:4072609)   #7
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Overall, somewhat promising from this one F1 race. We need more examples to see if there continues to be positive experience.

Richard
I think that's a good way to summarise it.....
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Old 8 Sep 2021, 14:19 (Ref:4072614)   #8
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I think fans don’t just want overtaking, they want to see a circuit that’s challenging just as much as the drivers do. They enjoy the spectacle. Why else would so many travel to Spa every year? They just love the spectacle because it’s a great circuit
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Old 8 Sep 2021, 14:29 (Ref:4072618)   #9
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There definitely is a lot more to it than just the amount of overtaking. It's a challenging track, where every mistake is punished. We don't get those a lot on F1, and it excites fans. No track limits either, which was a weird sensation since this always is a big subject wherever F1 goes.

Also the addition of the two banked corners, especially T3, was really cool to watch and in the F3 race definitely opened up overtaking possibilities as well.

With the current F1 cars it isn't such a great track for racing though. It's not because of the lack of overtaking opportunities, throughout the weekend we've seen you can overtake in various places, but mostly because of the following issues these cars have through high speed corners. Especially on high downforce. If the new car can eliminate (most of) that, the cars stick together throughout the lap, they will have plenty of opportunities into T1, T3 and even T12. Let's wait and see how that pans out next year.

Besides all of that personally I think it's a great addition to the calendar. It brings variety, the atmosphere was great and the drivers loved it. We were lucky not to have any SC's in the race, but I don't see that happening every year around here. Same goes for the splendid weather they had.

Looking forward to the 2022 race already!
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Old 8 Sep 2021, 14:43 (Ref:4072619)   #10
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I think fans don’t just want overtaking, they want to see a circuit that’s challenging just as much as the drivers do. They enjoy the spectacle. Why else would so many travel to Spa every year? They just love the spectacle because it’s a great circuit
I can only speak for myself. I have done some minimal driving in real life on circuits myself plus enough virtually via games, etc. Enough that I can appreciate the "as a driver" challenge of specific circuits such as Spa (and many other circuits not used for F1 such as the Nordschleife, Mount Panorama, Suzuka, etc.) So because of that, I can enjoy watching others experience that same challenge.

So in short, I agree. It's not one dimensional. But I expect if a given F1 race was a procession at Spa with no passing. We would not rate that particular "race" very highly in our post event polling. No matter how challenging Spa as a circuit might be for the singular driver.

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Old 8 Sep 2021, 15:28 (Ref:4072626)   #11
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I know we've had dull Spa races in the past, but many still credit the race rating by a point 'just because it's Spa....'
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Old 8 Sep 2021, 15:29 (Ref:4072627)   #12
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I know we've had dull Spa races in the past, but many still credit the race rating by a point 'just because it's Spa....'

Providing there is a race of course
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Old 8 Sep 2021, 15:30 (Ref:4072628)   #13
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Indeed.....
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Old 8 Sep 2021, 15:53 (Ref:4072630)   #14
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dont know if i have an answer to why i have watched over 400 GPs but its probably that on track action is not my primary reason for watching. weird as that may sound.

so, with the possible exception to Silverstone next year (and only because it will feature earlier on the calendar and the British fans will no doubt have to step it up another level), Zandvoort is without a doubt the one race, if i can of course, i feel compelled to attend in person next year or at least sometime during Max' career. its at the top of the list now!

fan enthusiasm goes a long way in making an event worthwhile imo.

was much F1 related activity/promo stuff happening in Amsterdam or was it all confined to the town of Zandvoort? i would assume covid put a lid on much of the side events, but i suspect post covid, this race will rival Montreal in terms of fan experience.
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Old 8 Sep 2021, 17:09 (Ref:4072637)   #15
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The thing is with any sporting event, you are never guaranteed anything. You can go watch live music or a play and 9 times out of 10 it’s a great thing to watch. With sport, it’s always unscripted, so you don’t know what’s going to happen. And of course you could be watching a dull race, then something dramatic happens and suddenly it becomes exciting. That’s the beauty of sport, the drama is real.
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