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Old 13 Sep 2021, 16:34 (Ref:4073685)   #196
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Originally Posted by Taxi645 View Post
"always give another driver racing room if any part of their car is next to yours at any point of the track". It allows better wheel to wheel racing and is much easier to understand for stewards, drivers and fans.
Wouldn't that just encourage crazy never-gonna-stick moves because the other guy will always have to yield?
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Old 13 Sep 2021, 16:36 (Ref:4073686)   #197
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I can appreciate not all drivers will have the same mentality as Max, but he is a product of "modern F1". A sport now where the drivers are fawned over, protected and offered punishment-free racing due to extensive tarmac runoffs. I am sure if it were 40 years ago, drivers would never be so wreckless. I think the FIA needs to have a think about what drivers are being tought from a young age because when they get to F1 they are on the world stage and young drivers look up to them.

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Old 13 Sep 2021, 16:41 (Ref:4073687)   #198
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I can appreciate not all drivers will have the same mentality as Max, but he is a product of "modern F1". A sport now where the drivers are fawned over, protected and offered punishment-free racing due to extensive tarmac runoffs. I am sure if it were 40 years ago, drivers would never be so wreckless.
Reckless sums it up I think. The first time I saw it, I thought why didn't MV back off, it was clear that there was not going to be room for both cars to get round from some distance away, but I suspect he thought he would just barge LH out of the way and sod the consequences. He deserved the penalty. I've done the same thing karting. I deserved the penalty too.
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Old 13 Sep 2021, 18:20 (Ref:4073698)   #199
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Originally Posted by Anyopenroad View Post
Wouldn't that just encourage crazy never-gonna-stick moves because the other guy will always have to yield?
Well it works both ways. It's not about yielding but about going around the corner side by side.

More emphases on positioning your car the right way before the corner and trying to put the opponent in a worse position.
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Old 13 Sep 2021, 18:21 (Ref:4073699)   #200
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I can appreciate not all drivers will have the same mentality as Max, but he is a product of "modern F1". A sport now where the drivers are fawned over, protected and offered punishment-free racing due to extensive tarmac runoffs. I am sure if it were 40 years ago, drivers would never be so wreckless. I think the FIA needs to have a think about what drivers are being tought from a young age because when they get to F1 they are on the world stage and young drivers look up to them.
Agree 100% procent.
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Old 13 Sep 2021, 22:33 (Ref:4073723)   #201
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The 40yrs ago argument is an interesting one, it takes us to 1981 which a certain G Villeneuve was still driving.

Someone referred to at the time (and since) as a somewhat reckless but super quick driver.
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Old 13 Sep 2021, 23:37 (Ref:4073732)   #202
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Originally Posted by Taxi645 View Post
The problem is there is rules (which the drivers can know before tangling) and their is the interpretation.

The whole wheel to wheel combat section of the rules has so much grey area that their is too much change of randomness and it does not really promote fair racing.

Even many decades long motorsport experts were expecting a racing incident of perhaps Hamilton slightly more to blame. Than the outcome comes as a complete surprise. How are drivers supposed to know beforehand how to behave in a split second if even after quite a lot of reflection the actual outcome is quite surprise?

I think this thing will keep happening, because the wheel to wheel combat rules have way too much grey area. If you want drivers to be able to race according to the rules and having to decide in a split second, the rules need to be clear and not depending on what afterwards is one of the many possible interpretations of the rules and the situation. I'm quite sure that the next collection of stewards just as experienced could've called it a racing incident based on the same situation but a different interpretation.

So it's not about being right, but for me about 1) giving drivers a clear set of rules how to engage in combat and 2) better protecting the guy on the outside to facility multiple corner wheel to wheel racing.
Yup, spot on.

To race you need to be able to trust the other driver, and the rules need to set out the parameters of combat for the untrustworthy.
Sweeping everything under the carpet as a racing incident results in what we saw here.

Both at fault, and racing suffered.
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Old 14 Sep 2021, 01:09 (Ref:4073740)   #203
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But they aren’t sweeping everything under the carpet as a racing incident! Pretty much everything gets a penalty now! Certainly much more than previously. They are doing what you want!
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Old 14 Sep 2021, 01:30 (Ref:4073743)   #204
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Because it is a sport, there has to be a level of grey area. Otherwise, that means the sport is so tightly regulated that there is no intrigue to the outcome.

What I mean is, there are certain parts of a sport where the outcome of an event can be defined as a definitive instance. These would be cases where if the same situation was reviewed a thousand times, the outcome would always be the same regardless of who made the decision. Examples of this are line calls where a ball is involved, or the total number of people allowed on a pitch.
For F1, examples of this are things such as speed limits in the pit lane, or movement before the lights go out.

Then there are the sporting contest, in which the decision is based on whether something is 'sporting' or 'fair'. Every person will have a differing opinion on where the line is drawn, and the regulations set up a framework within which the referees, umpires or stewards of a sport make their decisions. If there was no grey area, there would be no need for any form of official to adjudicate on decisions.

The fact that F1 is a sport with competitors means that there is a near-infinite amount of possibilities - and no set of regulations will cover every possible eventuality. That is why you can look for precedent, and similar incidents in the past, but no two incidents are the same.

Lap 1 T4 and Barcelona may be similar, but they are different. When we reach the point that we expect all stewards to reach the same decision with every single incident, then we are saying that all of the data could be fed into a computer, through an algorithm, and the outcome would be identical every time. If we reach the point that we can write such an algorithm, then we have reached a set of regulations with no grey areas. Until such time, we need stewards to interpret these grey areas for the sport.

Even in judging the incidents between Ham and Ver at Silverstone and Monza, the resultant positions of the driver handed a penalty were different. People have argued that 10 seconds was not a justifiable penalty, because Hamilton was able to make up the deficit. People would argue that 3 place penalty is insufficient, because either Ver could make up the places, or he will take an engine penalty anyway. So when there is grey area over what an appropriate penalty is, how can we expect all grey areas to be removed over whether an incident is worthy of penalty?


To put across an example of why removing grey area is difficult:
'For me it's a leaving racing room thing to facilitate wheel to wheel racing'

1 - what is 'racing room'. If you are taking the need to facilitate wheel to wheel racing, then it could be presented as always needing to leave a car's width.
2 - If you have to leave a car's width, is that on the inside, outside or both?
3 - When do you have to leave that width? When someone is alongside - fully, partially, majority of car length?
4 - How far into the braking zone does a car need to be alongside before they are entitled to 'racing room'?
5 - Do you need to leave racing room before or after an apex?

The list continues....

Is this racing room:

Id agree with the idea of 'grey areas'
There are basic principles in all stewarding of driving behavior and good stewards have them pretty much all in a line.
In this instance Ocon got penalized for not leaving racing room.
I would say yes that is true. Racing room in that situation is to be able to continue on your trajectory without being forced to leave the racing surface. And he was forced to leave the racing surface.
Ocon didn't really know how close he was. His mistake.
That is situation is common in all motorsports because its a blind spot.
You assume in Vettel's spot have been seen but the person in front thinks your gone, they're further ahead.
Like with Max and HAM at Silverstone.
HAM was significantly alongside but started to let it go and slipped back a bit when Max turned in across the line that Ham would have taken had he remained alongside. Just look at the aerial view. Max definitely turned in to what Ham would have occupied if he had remained in there.
Max obviously assumed he was gone or not there, but he was.

IN karting this happens a lot.
Situational unawareness, especially with kids.
Max learnt to race in karts and still retains a lot of his elbows out "I'll stuff it in there and my skills will sort it out" style o aggressive driving but its really a form of intimidation.

At Silverstone earlier in the first lap before Copse Max and Ham were side by side coming up to a left hander. Max is on the inside and starts to move to the right. HAM gives him room then Max turns left into the turn but not before his right rear makes contact with Hams left front. The same two wheels that touched in Copse.
Was the wheel/suspension damaged or weakened before Copse? I don't know. But if so it explained why the assembly came away so easily and Max lost control at 150mph.

If it was there is no question in my mind that the Max V driving style was the author of his own misfortune , not HAM.

Last edited by Teretonga; 14 Sep 2021 at 01:36.
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Old 14 Sep 2021, 06:43 (Ref:4073771)   #205
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But they aren’t sweeping everything under the carpet as a racing incident! Pretty much everything gets a penalty now! Certainly much more than previously. They are doing what you want!
For me, its the forcing a driver wide over a bit of grass / tarmac that I dont like, this usually happens on the exit of a corner in an acceleration zone. The driver on the inside feels they have the right to the whole corner and the driver on the outside gets pushed off. Now I never really saw this kind of driving years ago, but it happens now ALL the time and we have seen it bite drivers like Kimi, when that exact thing happened at Silverstone some years back, he then floored the throttle hit a bump and caused a big crash. Now in that instance there was several people at fault, the inital driver who wrecklessly pushed him wide, Kimi was partially at fault for being wreckless himself and just flooring it over the run off and I guess you could say some small fault lay with the Silverstone itself for not having that area totally flat.

The problem is you have a driver on the inside who feels the corner is theirs and they want to claim it, so they push the outer driver wide. The guy on the inside thinks that the outer driver will bail to the grass / tarmac, but obviously this puts them at a disadvantage due to getting dirty tyres/punctures, so naturally the driver on the outside will resist this, however its almost seen now as an automatic "out" and if the driver on the outside DOESNT move over, they will have a wheel banging session and likely a crash.
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Old 14 Sep 2021, 07:36 (Ref:4073772)   #206
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The 40yrs ago argument is an interesting one, it takes us to 1981 which a certain G Villeneuve was still driving.

Someone referred to at the time (and since) as a somewhat reckless but super quick driver.
The difference is a lot of Gilles' contemporaries said he was always fair when going wheel to wheel and would never intentionally push someone else off
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Old 14 Sep 2021, 08:48 (Ref:4073777)   #207
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For me, its the forcing a driver wide over a bit of grass / tarmac that I dont like, this usually happens on the exit of a corner in an acceleration zone. The driver on the inside feels they have the right to the whole corner and the driver on the outside gets pushed off. Now I never really saw this kind of driving years ago, but it happens now ALL the time and we have seen it bite drivers like Kimi, when that exact thing happened at Silverstone some years back, he then floored the throttle hit a bump and caused a big crash. Now in that instance there was several people at fault, the inital driver who wrecklessly pushed him wide, Kimi was partially at fault for being wreckless himself and just flooring it over the run off and I guess you could say some small fault lay with the Silverstone itself for not having that area totally flat.

The problem is you have a driver on the inside who feels the corner is theirs and they want to claim it, so they push the outer driver wide. The guy on the inside thinks that the outer driver will bail to the grass / tarmac, but obviously this puts them at a disadvantage due to getting dirty tyres/punctures, so naturally the driver on the outside will resist this, however its almost seen now as an automatic "out" and if the driver on the outside DOESNT move over, they will have a wheel banging session and likely a crash.
Lando got pinged for not allowing room for Perez in Austria and again in Zandvoort he did something similar. So there is often a consequence. Its not being ignored.
Sometimes enthusiasts feel that it is being ignored or not enough is being done but you have to remember that this is a sport. A competition.

A competitive game, although a very expensive one.
The cars have a lot to do with it. Incredibly strong, complex, heavy, powerful, aerodynamically very sensitive. Its much harder to pass now. More than it has ever been.
Yet so much safer that the likelihood of getting seriously injured is more remote than ever.
Although if ham Had been injured in his spine at Monza how different would the response been if the race had to be red flagged while he was removed from his car and flown to hospital?

Because its a competition everything is up for grabs. There's a lot at stake.
Fortune favor's the brave....
Remember that.
That is why if someone bullies someone and pulls it off to their advantage they appear to get away with it.

We love dramatic and brave, awesome , amazing moves and overtakes.

I've said this before but I'll repeat it.
In motorsport its a bit like this;

He who dares, if he brings it off, wins.
He who dares, but doesn't bring it off, takes himself out and loses.
He who dares, and takes someone else out, gets penalized.
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Old 14 Sep 2021, 09:04 (Ref:4073779)   #208
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So, this is currently happening over on Twitter. Alan van der Merwe is getting hounded by "F1 fans" over the medical car not being deployed to Lewis Hamilton... Just look at the replies FFS. https://twitter.com/alanvdm/status/1...451153410?s=20

Honestly i cant even deal with these new "social media fans" it never used to be like this.
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Old 14 Sep 2021, 09:19 (Ref:4073781)   #209
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So, this is currently happening over on Twitter. Alan van der Merwe is getting hounded by "F1 fans" over the medical car not being deployed to Lewis Hamilton... Just look at the replies FFS. https://twitter.com/alanvdm/status/1...451153410?s=20

Honestly i cant even deal with these new "social media fans" it never used to be like this.
When the responses are from accounts with names like "@ILuvLewisHam" it probably tells you everything you need to know.
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Old 14 Sep 2021, 09:21 (Ref:4073782)   #210
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When the responses are from accounts with names like "@ILuvLewisHam" it probably tells you everything you need to know.
Is 'username checks out' more definitive than 'location checks out'?
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