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Old 14 Sep 2021, 09:38 (Ref:4073783)   #211
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Honestly i cant even deal with these new "social media fans" it never used to be like this.
Ignore it then. I do. You can be pretty sure AVDM isn’t affected by it either.
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Old 14 Sep 2021, 10:43 (Ref:4073788)   #212
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Malfunction Junction should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridMalfunction Junction should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
You’re all overthinking it;

With their slow pit stops it was virtually inevitable that Ricciardo would win the race. Neither of them wanted to do a Shoey, so took each other out to even the score and leave the juice of the foot to someone else.

That’s what team mates are for.
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Old 14 Sep 2021, 11:56 (Ref:4073801)   #213
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Originally Posted by Teretonga View Post
Lando got pinged for not allowing room for Perez in Austria and again in Zandvoort he did something similar. So there is often a consequence. Its not being ignored.
Sometimes enthusiasts feel that it is being ignored or not enough is being done but you have to remember that this is a sport. A competition.
It's not being ignored, but is not policed enough in frequency are severity of penalty for it to be enough of a deterrent to change behaviour.

Yes, Norris gets a minimal penalty while the other guys race is over. In Zandvoort he does the same again so it does not seem he has learned much from the penalty.

Verstappen-Leclerc Austria
Verstappen-Hamilton Barcelona
Verstappen-Hamilton Monza lap 1 T4
Hamilton-Verstappen crash

So let's say for arguments sake Hamilton would have left Verstappen enough room from T1 tot T2. He would've have had to take a tighter arc (like lap 1) and so would've lost some ground because of that. Instead of Verstappen being slightly behind into T2 he probably would've been about equal or slightly ahead.

But now comes T2. Now Verstappen needs to take a much tighter arch to leave Hamilton enough room on the exit of T2. Two things could then have happened:

1 He fails to do so, in my book that is a penalty for Verstappen
2 Or he does leave Hamilton enough room on the outside, Hamilton can take more speed onto curva granda and we could've seen the fight continue into the second chicane.

Glorious stuff potentially. unfortunately like so many times lately many drivers are not willing to go through a corner side by side and it's over within one corner. The current rules unfortunately don't help to change that.

Last edited by Taxi645; 14 Sep 2021 at 12:03.
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Old 14 Sep 2021, 13:38 (Ref:4073834)   #214
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Originally Posted by tux View Post
So, this is currently happening over on Twitter. Alan van der Merwe is getting hounded by "F1 fans" over the medical car not being deployed to Lewis Hamilton... Just look at the replies FFS. https://twitter.com/alanvdm/status/1...451153410?s=20

Honestly i cant even deal with these new "social media fans" it never used to be like this.
Its the reason i deleted social media.

You cant have a sensible conversation on their anymore. its full of 'bots' or trolls, whipping up polarising statments. it was the same after Silverstone when people wanted to burn lewis at the stake...

..and to be fair its not just confined to those 2 drivers, it was the same with Vettel a couple of years back, anti russell brigade...twitter is just a cesspit....only 1 step worse than pistonheads.

At least here, you can have a decent conversation for the majority of time
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Old 14 Sep 2021, 13:43 (Ref:4073838)   #215
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Not sure about damage limitation bit!
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Old 14 Sep 2021, 15:16 (Ref:4073864)   #216
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Its the reason i deleted social media.

You cant have a sensible conversation on their anymore. its full of 'bots' or trolls, whipping up polarising statments. it was the same after Silverstone when people wanted to burn lewis at the stake...

..and to be fair its not just confined to those 2 drivers, it was the same with Vettel a couple of years back, anti russell brigade...twitter is just a cesspit....only 1 step worse than pistonheads.

At least here, you can have a decent conversation for the majority of time

Yes, at least the rules on here are more stricter on social media platforms, so we can at least be civil more often. Twitter and the like can seem like a free for all and that leads to some very disturbing comments
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Old 14 Sep 2021, 15:57 (Ref:4073888)   #217
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Sodemo should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridSodemo should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridSodemo should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridSodemo should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Tarmac run off is partly to blame. Drivers are now expected to run wide as a normality if two cars are side by side, what then happens once a car is on the tarmac / grass / bumps is anyones guess.
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Old 14 Sep 2021, 16:00 (Ref:4073890)   #218
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Tarmac run off is partly to blame. Drivers are now expected to run wide as a normality if two cars are side by side, what then happens once a car is on the tarmac / grass / bumps is anyones guess.
For a moment there I was trying to work out how tarmac run-off had made Twitter a cesspool
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Old 14 Sep 2021, 19:08 (Ref:4073916)   #219
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Not really.
Had I been officiating as a steward I'd have listened to his excuses and then warned him about the things he'd missed.
I would have considered a race suspension.

If you follow the onboard it is clear while he is still less than halfway alongside Hamilton and that there is no way he is going to get around the corner on the inside.
That chicane is NOT a piece of track where you can RACE through side by side, even at at 60kph.
The cars are too long and don't have enough lock to enable you to do that with crashing into each other or forcing the other person off the road.
Even in the early part of the corner from Max's camera you can see that Hamilton is lining up from apex to apex.
The natural path for the corner.
There was never any opening to get properly alongside to force the issue.

When he did get alongside his left side was clearly off the racing surface before any contact was ever made.
The only way he even got alongside was by leaving the racing surface which was why the curbs threw him up and on the path he was taking contact would only been avoided if Hamilton backed out of it and let Max have the whole width of the track to resume his race.
But the curb threw him up over Hamilton before that could happen.

So it was Max's actions that caused the collision, not Hamilton's.

What Max should have done was taken the through road and conceded the the position because on turning into the chicane his front wheels were already clearly behind the front wheels of Hamilton
Effectively he caused an otherwise avoidable collision.
It is not a racing incident because the stewards deemed that his passing effort was initiated too late.
From the video angles I would totally agree with that summation.

But there was no way he was going to do that because he didn't want to have to get past Hamilton again when he knew Hamilton had enough speed to make it very difficult for him to do so. He didn't have enough advantage to guarantee an easy pathway.
Ralf Schumacher, an FIA credentialed media person these days made the comment on air that the best thing Max could do in this situation was to take Hamilton out.

That may be partly the reason why Hamilton's boss is suggesting a professional foul.
It may have been but its hard to prove.

What can you say about the part of the stewards' decision where they say Hamilton took an "evasive line" that still pushed Verstappen into the kerb, all in one and the same sentence?

Also, many would say that chicane can accommodate two cars. Or at least that Hamilton could have left some more room and still taken the chicane with that speed. Not that he was obliged to, but could have.

Also they mentioned something about Hamilton being ahead at the 50m board for Turn 1 - that's awfully close to the pit exit, out of which Hamilton was accelerating.

Another thing I noted is that Hamilton had already done his allowed 1 blocking move right before Turn 1, where Verstappen was pushed out of the track, but he kept going because of the astroturf. When I watched him at Turn 2 to me it seemed he deserved some room because he had managed to keep a significant portion of his car alongside, despite getting blocked at Turn 1.
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Old 14 Sep 2021, 20:21 (Ref:4073942)   #220
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Also, many would say that chicane can accommodate two cars. Or at least that Hamilton could have left some more room and still taken the chicane with that speed. Not that he was obliged to, but could have.
'Hey, come on through Max, I don't need another WDC really.....'
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Old 14 Sep 2021, 22:46 (Ref:4073951)   #221
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'Hey, come on through Max, I don't need another WDC really.....'
They could have raced through the exit. I think Hamilton would have come out ahead, if not then, then in the next bend (Biassono).

With the same logic we can't blame Verstappen for going for it. That was his chance. He was having a promising race until the dreadful pitstop. Then Hamilton had a less than optimal pitstop and that brought them together at Turn 1. That's also probably the best place to pull an overtaking move at Monza (unlike Turn 4). And with the Mercedes being faster on that track, it was Verstappen's only chance to try and pass (or stay ahead after Hamilton pitting). All this talk of a "tactical foul" is just absurd, he didn't go into the turn with the intention to crash, nor was there a way to plan how to crash so both cars are out (not to mention one on top of the other).

For those who are not aware, a "tactical foul" is when in football/soccer a player fouls an opponent on purpose with the intention of preventing a potential scoring opportunity which will be hard or impossible to stop without breaking the rules of the game. It happens a lot during the initiation of counter attacks.

This was just two drivers who were pushing very hard and who were very unyielding to each other. It was actually damn good racing and I would love to see it more often, if it were not for those dumb sausages lining the track.

I watched it live on Sky, and there, as well as in the analysis everyone seemed to think it was a racing incident. The great analyses on the-race also wrote the same. The official F1 analysis from yesterday also calls it a racing incident (though they say Max was just slightly behind to make it 100% clear cut).
But now we have people calling for a race suspension?? It's obvious some are convinced Verstappen crashed on purpose, and that is sad, not just practically impossible to plan it all out like that. I'm haring Max's favorite stewards was one of the deciders

At least the penalty will not be that significant, as RB have to replace an engine and they were considering Sochi anyway. Though now their hand is probably forced. But to me, with the outcome being the same for both drivers after their clash, the penalty may give a psychological advantage to Hamilton.
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Old 15 Sep 2021, 00:58 (Ref:4073972)   #222
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It's not being ignored, but is not policed enough in frequency are severity of penalty for it to be enough of a deterrent to change behaviour.

Yes, Norris gets a minimal penalty while the other guys race is over. In Zandvoort he does the same again so it does not seem he has learned much from the penalty.

Verstappen-Leclerc Austria
Verstappen-Hamilton Barcelona
Verstappen-Hamilton Monza lap 1 T4
Hamilton-Verstappen crash

So let's say for arguments sake Hamilton would have left Verstappen enough room from T1 tot T2. He would've have had to take a tighter arc (like lap 1) and so would've lost some ground because of that. Instead of Verstappen being slightly behind into T2 he probably would've been about equal or slightly ahead.

But now comes T2. Now Verstappen needs to take a much tighter arch to leave Hamilton enough room on the exit of T2. Two things could then have happened:

1 He fails to do so, in my book that is a penalty for Verstappen
2 Or he does leave Hamilton enough room on the outside, Hamilton can take more speed onto curva granda and we could've seen the fight continue into the second chicane.

Glorious stuff potentially. unfortunately like so many times lately many drivers are not willing to go through a corner side by side and it's over within one corner. The current rules unfortunately don't help to change that.
Well put Taxi

and another for getting rid of sausage curbs.

Peroni's accident Monza 2019.
https://www.motor1.com/news/369457/f...rash-breaking/

Damn things have potentially caused 2 fatal accidents, Peroni's was more luck than good management, and Lewis was saved by the halo. Time to take the hint.
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Old 15 Sep 2021, 01:51 (Ref:4073979)   #223
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It's not being ignored, but is not policed enough in frequency are severity of penalty for it to be enough of a deterrent to change behaviour.

Yes, Norris gets a minimal penalty while the other guys race is over. In Zandvoort he does the same again so it does not seem he has learned much from the penalty.

Verstappen-Leclerc Austria
Verstappen-Hamilton Barcelona
Verstappen-Hamilton Monza lap 1 T4
Hamilton-Verstappen crash

So let's say for arguments sake Hamilton would have left Verstappen enough room from T1 tot T2. He would've have had to take a tighter arc (like lap 1) and so would've lost some ground because of that. Instead of Verstappen being slightly behind into T2 he probably would've been about equal or slightly ahead.

But now comes T2. Now Verstappen needs to take a much tighter arch to leave Hamilton enough room on the exit of T2. Two things could then have happened:

1 He fails to do so, in my book that is a penalty for Verstappen
2 Or he does leave Hamilton enough room on the outside, Hamilton can take more speed onto curva granda and we could've seen the fight continue into the second chicane.

Glorious stuff potentially. unfortunately like so many times lately many drivers are not willing to go through a corner side by side and it's over within one corner. The current rules unfortunately don't help to change that.
good post. Two things.
Your assumption that the penalties are not harsh enough is incorrect. There is an accumulative effective and I can assure you the drivers do feel it.
They are far more sensitive to it than you realize.

The second is the notion that you can effectively pass in Rettifilo and that T2 is possible for two cars to RACE around side b side without someone being pushed off or disadvantaged. Its NOT. Not under racing conditions.

Most chicanes of that nature are not places to pass unless there is a huge disparity in speed, grip and road holding. Under brakes beforehand. Yes. But not IN the chicane.
FIA Kart circuits are 8m wide minimum and drivers use all the road, or as much as possible if they can, and karts are a fraction of the size of a F1 car.
If you had a kart circuit with the chicane the physical side and width of of Rettifilo most of your kart drivers would still go through it in single file....
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Old 15 Sep 2021, 02:02 (Ref:4073980)   #224
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Well put Taxi

and another for getting rid of sausage curbs.

Peroni's accident Monza 2019.
https://www.motor1.com/news/369457/f...rash-breaking/

Damn things have potentially caused 2 fatal accidents, Peroni's was more luck than good management, and Lewis was saved by the halo. Time to take the hint.
You're right about Peroni's incident and that would be a daft place to have a sausage curb so Id have no question about removing that one but the Max V situation is an entirely different set of circumstances and in a different place for a different reason.
Max made deliberate decisions that led to that situation.
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Old 15 Sep 2021, 03:39 (Ref:4073989)   #225
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Having watched it again, I feel this is mostly Verstappen's fault, but by a whisker (and I suppose a little more than a racing incident, but not an absolute stinker by Max). Hamilton absolutely squeezed him and dictated that he had the corner for the second part of the chicane. You can question whether Hamilton should be able to squeeze him so much there.

Assuming Max could still back out, the critical decision was made as soon as he started to turn right. Instead of waiting (or cutting the chicane), he also started to take the right-hander, but due to the finnicky nature of this chicane soon found himself bundled over the kerbs and into Hamilton.

The Senna-Prost Suzuka '89 comparisons are quite relevant, not just for the intense title battle, but for the unwillingness of both to back down.

I would question why Monza needs such tight chicanes. It is difficult enough for the drivers to establish what constitutes fair racing, 'my corner', 'my line' and so on, without the need for an even tighter set of space.
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