[WEC] LMP Future Regulations (was Le Mans EVO rules - now hypercar rules)

[Mike E]

https://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/...hypercar-regs/

This is Zak Brown saying it's all too complicated because of different concepts (LMP/Hypercar/GTE Plus/whatever) all mixed up. It's all mixed up because of the manufacturers.

“We prefer a production-based hypercar,” Brown told Sportscar365. “We want to see Aston Martin, Ferrari, Porsche in road-going hypercars.

“I think that’s what the fans want and what we want to race against."

Porsche aren't interested, Ferrari probably not either. I'm a fan and I want to watch prototypes defying reality, not a footballer's plaything tooling around slower than an LMP2.
If you want to race against Aston, Ferrari and Porsche, may I direct you towards GTE?

[ApexTurtle]

My word, besides the stuff that's his own ill-informed opinion I don't think a single thing Brown said there is true.

[S griffin]

Well he is trying his best with his own team, so we’ll see

[PascaLM]

Zak Brown talks for his own manufacturer. I am not sure that FIA and ACO would refuse brands which have no hypercar to sell : Toyota, Peugeot, GM, Nissan, Audi, BMW...

[andrewn7]

Not sure how long the FIA/ACO can keep burying their heads in the sand on this one? Seems perfectly obvious these new rules are dead in the water and just need to be buried.

Realistically, I see two options:
1. DPI+. Something that isn't called DPI, but is essentially based on very similar platform and principles
2. Kick the can down the road. Stick with what we have now maybe with some form of COTS hybrid being made available to all?

I honestly don't see any other options.

What do others think?

[TF110]

I prefer they go with the original idea back when Porsche was around but leave it open to lmps without hybrids like today or 3 ers's. Not this watered down gtp/souped up GTE.

[Dyson Mazda]

Originally Posted by andrewn7

Not sure how long the FIA/ACO can keep burying their heads in the sand on this one? Seems perfectly obvious these new rules are dead in the water and just need to be buried.

Realistically, I see two options:
1. DPI+. Something that isn't called DPI, but is essentially based on very similar platform and principles
2. Kick the can down the road. Stick with what we have now maybe with some form of COTS hybrid being made available to all?

I honestly don't see any other options.

What do others think?

I think it is all going to collapse because the ACO has no clue what they are doing in all of this and we are either going to have DPI's or Oreca 07's competing for the overall at Le Mans. The ACO needs to give OEMs what they really want. A chance to win the LM24 with a $20m/year budget.

[TF110]

No one is forcing them to spend over 20 million. They do that on their own. I don't understand how they can say they want to save money when they haven't been anywhere near lmps for over a decade. That's just Aston Martin. McLaren is over 2 decades ago and they had the McLaren F1. Even further back for someone like Ford. Ferrari is about the same as Mac. They have no problem with 350-400 million in f1 but they can't even go over 5%-10% of that to win Le Mans? And they get to use the same car for years on end. In F1 they change it every season. Imo they want a 'freebie' for minimal effort. Le Mans deserves better than that.

[ApexTurtle]

Originally Posted by andrewn7

Not sure how long the FIA/ACO can keep burying their heads in the sand on this one? Seems perfectly obvious these new rules are dead in the water and just need to be buried.

In favor of what? There's literally nothing else, they've tried it all. I'm not happy either they caved to the pressure of BoP but at least there should be at least three or four manufacturers on the grid in the 2021 season.

[ApexTurtle]

Originally Posted by Dyson Mazda

I think it is all going to collapse because the ACO has no clue what they are doing in all of this and we are either going to have DPI's or Oreca 07's competing for the overall at Le Mans. The ACO needs to give OEMs what they really want. A chance to win the LM24 with a $20m/year budget.

I would advise you to read the last few pages of this thread because it seems to me you're somewhat ignorant about what's actually happened the past few months. The ACO caving and giving a few OEMs what they really want is actually what's happening now, and it's been discussed

[Dyson Mazda]

Originally Posted by TF110

No one is forcing them to spend over 20 million. They do that on their own. I don't understand how they can say they want to save money when they haven't been anywhere near lmps for over a decade. That's just Aston Martin. McLaren is over 2 decades ago and they had the McLaren F1. Even further back for someone like Ford. Ferrari is about the same as Mac. They have no problem with 350-400 million in f1 but they can't even go over 5%-10% of that to win Le Mans? And they get to use the same car for years on end. In F1 they change it every season. Imo they want a 'freebie' for minimal effort. Le Mans deserves better than that.

Hypothetically speaking, is it possible to compete for an overall win at Le Mans/beat Toyota on a $20m/year budget. Nissan tried to do it on the cheap and it didn’t go well.

Also how many people watch, follow, and attend F1 races vs the WEC? OEMs spend what they do on racing because they see an ROI on it.

[S griffin]

Well it's possible, but unlikely. You need a bit of luck for it to happen. And it ain't cheap either

Certainly F1 is still number 1, WEC hasn't quite got there. People go to see WEC for the different variety of cars mainly IMHO

[TheMightyM]

The latest, per S365:

The concept of upgraded GTE machinery competing in the top class of the FIA World Endurance Championship and at the 24 Hours of Le Mans has resurfaced, with discussions ongoing between current GTE and GT3 manufacturers amid the FIA and ACO’s rapidly closing deadline for regulations.

Sportscar365 has learned that the concept, dubbed ‘GTE Plus’ or ‘Super GTE’, has again been suggested by manufacturers in recent working group meetings, potentially as a supplement or even a replacement for the so-called ‘Hypercar’ regulations that are due to debut in the 2020-21 WEC season.

[Nick Woodbury]

Originally Posted by TheMightyM

The latest, per S365:

[ApexTurtle]

although a formal proposal is not believed to have been made to the FIA or ACO and is just in the discussion stages.

So once again nothing, then.

[Sodemo]

Originally Posted by TheMightyM

The latest, per S365:

This is exactly what I said probably 6-12 months ago... "upgraded GTE".

[Akrapovic]

There's plenty of options. Just because they've tried LMP1 and now it's gotten out of hand, doesn't make it not an option now.

No need to reinvent from scratch every time something fails. If a building collapses we don't rethink the entire concept of buildings. We find out what went wrong and fix it.

[Dyson Mazda]

Originally Posted by Mike E

Aston wants to run a Valkyrie.
BMW wants to use hydrogen.
Toyota wants to run a prototype.
Ferrari wants to turn up to the meetings to appear interested but never commit to anything.
Ford wants to switch to DPi unless they might be interested in running a version of the GT as a hypercar. Maybe.
McLaren wants to run a Senna, or maybe a prototype that looks kinda like a 720S.
Glickenhaus wants to run a prototype that looks like a hypercar that they can sell as a road car.

Rebellio/SMP/ByKolles/Dragonspeed (maybe even Ginetta) don't want to throw away the very recent investment in their prototypes.

Besides that it's plain sailing...

You forgot GM, Acura, and Mazda want to run DPi’s.

Anyone want to make bets on what we actually end up with?

[skycafe]

Originally Posted by Dyson Mazda

You forgot GM, Acura, and Mazda want to run DPi’s.

Anyone want to make bets on what we actually end up with?

But do GM, Acura and Mazda want to run DPi's at LeMans?

GM has the Corvette at LeMans, and with a new generation version coming it would be assumed the would continue with that. If this GTE Plus comes about the next gen Corvette wouls seem to be a candidate...but then does IMSA follow and have a plus category too?

[joeb]

Originally Posted by skycafe

But do GM, Acura and Mazda want to run DPi's at LeMans?



GM has the Corvette at LeMans, and with a new generation version coming it would be assumed the would continue with that. If this GTE Plus comes about the next gen Corvette wouls seem to be a candidate...but then does IMSA follow and have a plus category too?

I think these are all good discussions to have but they should have been had with the manufacturers over the past two years and the ACO should have a rule set to go with by now. I think any of the so far proposed ideas could work, just think they've waited to long to make the decision.

[skycafe]

Originally Posted by joeb

think they've waited to long to make the decision.

I agree. It is concerning that it seems ACO/LM is struggling with this. Seems indicative of bigger issues with Auto Racing and relevance to consumers. Joking now, but what would happen if LM had a stadium truck section with jumps, and prototype SUVs were the specified class? Would that get a queue of manufacturer interest? They all seem to have their energy and focus on SUVs...

I'll admonish myself as an odd old crank now.

[Anyopenroad]

Originally Posted by skycafe

I agree. It is concerning that it seems ACO/LM is struggling with this. Seems indicative of bigger issues with Auto Racing and relevance to consumers.

There is definitely a wider issue of manufacturer commitment to motor racing given the speed of change and uncertainty in the industry.

However, customer GT and Prototype racing is booming, a veritable golden age. ELMS has a variety problem but still puts >40 cars on track. We've been so spoiled by Blancpain that a 49 car/8 manufacturer field was greeted by some as a disappointment. IGTC is growing. IMSA is flourishing. There is growth in Asian ELMS and GT series. It's impressive how quickly customer LMP1 chassis were put on track. VLN is thriving. Creventic quietly go along fielding 20-car GT3 grids all over the place. British GT and GT Open have bounced back. Even Britcar, a local series that almost died a few years ago, was recently able to put a healthy field on track.

The ACO's problem stems from an absolute commitment to have manufacturer, factory-run teams at the sharp end of the Le Mans grid, in the face of all the evidence that major manufacturers have no such interest. This results in them bending over backwards to please a small number of factories who already have supercars they might consider (but are hardly showing enthusiasm for) racing.

Frankly, I'd rather see a 10-15-car privateer LMP1 field than what is currently being proposed.

[S griffin]

Well if they want manufacturers they are going at it the wrong way. There are plenty of good series out there

ELMS obviously could do with a few more makes, but is still going strong with grid size. IMSA is still booming for now. And there are many series round the continent that are doing fine. Is Britcar still going? And Blancpain has somehow survived everything that has been thrown at it

I think the ACO should not just expect the manufacturers to turn up, it's a bit of a risk. They should focus on getting more privateers or it'll get nowhere

[Mike E]

Originally Posted by Anyopenroad

Frankly, I'd rather see a 10-15-car privateer LMP1 field than what is currently being proposed.

Agreed.

[MaskedRacer]

I like that Graham Goodwin is blaming the manufacturers for their selfish posturing. But he said that the ACO/WEC needs to be brave and take a stand. I like the super GTE+ idea myself. Just needs to be executed quickly. Aside from that then the privateers could take charge. Imagine the WEC right now without Toyota. It would be quite interesting with SMP, Rebellion, and Dragonspeed battling it out, but if they falter an LMP2 car can come in and win. Speed gap is small enough where the margin of error is not that great. Look at Sebring, the top P1 non hybrid only beat the top LMP2 by 4 laps.