[ETCC] the cup to be split into 4 race series

[stedevil]

Originally Posted by redshoes

And you think that BTCC will take any notice of what ETCC/WTCC dates have already been scheduled. All they care about is what live TV commitments cause a problem so schedule dates to avoid F1, Tour de France and World Cup. They've happily scheduled clashing meetings when WTCC has been in the UK in the past.

I expect that the other 'lower' series will feel much the same.

STCC run on Saturdays, just to sidestep potential F1 clashes. TDF they for sure don't care about. And World Cup of what?

But what STCC cannot do, is wait to set their dates until March because some crazy ETCC people want to move things around to the vary last second.

BTW, I noticed you've actually avoided answering the challenge.

No I didnt, you got a very detailed answer to your question. Pick any 4 weekends by random in 2011 if you must get specific dates to understand my point.

[Hazard]

Originally Posted by stedevil

No I didnt, you got a very detailed answer to your question. Pick any 4 weekends by random in 2011 if you must get specific dates to understand my point.

You actually gave a detailed answer to why you didn't think it was necessary to answer his question, which is slightly different

Originally Posted by stedevil

Super easy, set the dates 8+ months before season starts then STICK TO THEM. Then it's the lower series that need to make their next years schedule to avoid clashes.

Most national series won't really consider themselves lower series to the ETCC, they probably will have a losing debate with the WTCC...but certainly not the ETCC. All championships will pay no mind to the ETCC calendar, they have enough problems.

The BTCC calendar, as redshoes implied, is already completely built around avoiding F1, British Football and other major sporting events that will detract from it's TV coverage...they just wouldn't add the headache of the ETCC schedule as well.

[redshoes]

Football World Cup. Coverage is shared by ITV and BBC. Even if that day's game is shown on BBC there's little point trying to show BTCC coverage on ITV as most of your target audience will be watching the footie.

STCC/BTCC/etc don't have to wait until ETCC dates are set, it should be the other way around. I doubt there's a single team who have ETCC as their primary goal, all will be looking at their own national series first and fitting in ETCC if/when possible. Despite your earlier comment none of the big national series should be considered 'lower' that the ETCC, it's the other way around. STCC for example does not need schedule around ETCC in the hope of picking up a few extra entries, however the reverse is true of the ETCC.

So given that the various national series will always do what is in their own interest and set their dates first regardless of what anyone else is doing, the ETCC has no option but to try to schedule around everyone else, hence my original question. Pick 4 dates at random for 2011 if you want but don't expect anyone else to take any notice.

[JMeissner]

STCC/BTCC/etc are not changing their schedules for ETCC.

But ETCC did, at first at least. The first version of the ETCC calendar clashed with STCC/BTCC/DTC in two of the races.

The calendar was then changed, with no clashes.

I wonder what the reason for this change came, as it puts the whole thing back to step one. I think a lot of teams will hesitate when they from the start does not have the chance to take part in all races.

BTCC/DTC/STCC is the backbone for ETCC, so imho a change of that date should be very important. But I guess its down to the money...

[Jon411]

What they have done makes absolutely no sense at all and they can't of tried that hard to find an alternative racetrack either.

Unless they allow 2 dropped scores from the 8 races or something then its going to put teams off doing any ETCC racing

Even if someone like Engstler decides he will do the ETCC and WTCC races that weekend, surely he'll need to take 2 cars just for him to use, due to parc fermé conditions?

I hope something changes so that it is possible for the teams to either do all 4 race weeks as intended, or they can drop scores or something, as its the most pointless possible thing they could have done.

[Hazard]

Originally Posted by Jon411

Even if someone like Engstler decides he will do the ETCC and WTCC races that weekend, surely he'll need to take 2 cars just for him to use, due to parc fermé conditions?
.

Just for logical reasons even. If he fancies a shot at either title (lets be fair, the ETCC's more achievable for Franz even if the SR-Sport cars aren't Yokohama Trophy eligible) - he would want his only car wrecked in the wrong race.

I'm doubtful any WTCC entrants (that is cars, not drivers) are meant to race in the ETCC.

[NaBUru38]

The original date was May 30, which was to be an ETCC and ADAC Procar round. But the ADAC Procar decided to go to Hockenheim instead that weekend, and then the ETCC didn't want to stay alone so they moved the race to September 5. Should we blame the ADAC then?

[Hazard]

Originally Posted by NaBUru38

The original date was May 30, which was to be an ETCC and ADAC Procar round. But the ADAC Procar decided to go to Hockenheim instead that weekend, and then the ETCC didn't want to stay alone so they moved the race to September 5. Should we blame the ADAC then?

The Procar move was most certainly just following the ETCC, not the other way around.

The fact it was announced slightly earlier is a timing thing only...let's face it, they knew the FIA was moving the ETCC race to the same weekend as the WTCC....they just couldn't tell anyone.

[stedevil]

Originally Posted by redshoes

STCC/BTCC/etc don't have to wait until ETCC dates are set, it should be the other way around.

It should be neither. National championships should not have to wait, ever, because ETCC calendar should already be set by the time the national events even starts work on their next year schedules. Also, the ETCC calendar should be set in cooperation with the national championships, if nothing else to work around territorial thinking and national "world championship" sentiments.

That is the only way ETCC will ever really be able to work properly, and I sure would like to see eg the top 5 teams from the top 5 championships in Europe battle it out. Wouldn't you like to see the same?

The carrot for the teams should be decent prize money, the carrot for the national championships... donno, perhaps to host an ETCC event the next year?

the ETCC has no option but to try to schedule around everyone else

It still doesnt change the fact that it's the completely wrong approach if you ever want ETCC to actually work. And changing dates 1-2mo before the start of the event to something with massive clashes to ALL the top national series is just daft, plain and simply. That just creates animosity and irritation in exactly the places where ETCC need to not look like A-holes. And after this stunt, which teams will even bother with planning for ETCC next year when they know you can get screwed over at any time, even though you already managed to prep cars and collect sponsors/budget.

[Hazard]

Originally Posted by stedevil

It still doesnt change the fact that it's the completely wrong approach if you ever want ETCC to actually work. And changing dates 1-2mo before the start of the event to something with massive clashes to ALL the top national series is just daft, plain and simply.

I don't think anyone's arguing against that.

[redshoes]

Originally Posted by stedevil

It still doesnt change the fact that it's the completely wrong approach if you ever want ETCC to actually work.

In an ideal world perhaps, but in practice it's not that simple.

If national series take little or no notice of the WTCC schedule, which clearly is (or should be) higher in the pecking order, then why should take notice of the ETCC schedule. You occasionally is a local team guesting in the WTCC but how often do you see a WTCC guesting at a national event. Off the top of my head I can't think of a single example. As I've said before there's nothing to be gained from working with the ETCC and nothing to be lost from ignoring it - in that situation simple ignoring it is the less complicated option.

The carrot for the teams should be decent prize money, the carrot for the national championships... donno, perhaps to host an ETCC event the next year?

The revenue from hosting an ETCC event would go to the circuit, not the national championship organisers, so not much of a carrot.

We've been saying this ever year, just organising one end-of-season event that doesn't clash with at least one local championship is hard enough, organising four mid-season events that don't clash is near enough impossible.

[redshoes]

Just going back to the possible combined races at Oschersleben. As I recall Procar uses control Dunlop tyres, ETCC I assume will use control Advans. If it's a combined race then you can't be legal, and therefore score points, for both championship.

A combined WTCC/ETCC grid would work.

[stedevil]

Originally Posted by redshoes

In an ideal world perhaps, but in practice it's not that simple.

If national series take little or no notice of the WTCC schedule, which clearly is (or should be) higher in the pecking order, then why should take notice of the ETCC schedule.

Team&driver setups usually don't compete in BOTH full season WTCC and national-TCC, so overlap or not is not strictly relevant. But the entire point of ETCC is for national top teams to participate ALSO in ETCC. That makes a big difference.

And here, not only does the ETCC moved date conflict with just national championships, but it also *ucks up the multinational NezCup. And NezCup + ETCC I see as a very interesting combo for a team that are looking for expanding from national to a more European focus (incl sponsors).

The revenue from hosting an ETCC event would go to the circuit, not the national championship organisers, so not much of a carrot.

Surely that depends on what agreements & contracts that are made...
In any case, that was just 1 potential carrot that could be offered.

[stedevil]

Originally Posted by redshoes

A combined WTCC/ETCC grid would work.

S1600 etc cars on a WTCC grid? I surely hope not.

[Pettersson]

So, it's more important to have 5-6 S2000 cars from Germany than possible entries from BTCC/STCC/DTC? I think it's a fantastic example on how FIA acts, where money and politics have higher value than actually host a good championship. And still FIA wonder what they do wrong... They shoot themself in the foot constantly. It looked ok before this change.

I agree to some extent with Redshoes. When they can't attract good competition in one single event, how can they run an entire 4-race championship/cup alongside the national championships and WTCC? Especially when the global finances looks like this. But aren't teams and drivers allowed to miss one round of the ETCC? I think I've read something about it.

[touring fan01]

Originally Posted by Pettersson

So, it's more important to have 5-6 S2000 cars from Germany than possible entries from BTCC/STCC/DTC? I think it's a fantastic example on how FIA acts, where money and politics have higher value than actually host a good championship. And still FIA wonder what they do wrong... They shoot themself in the foot constantly. It looked ok before this change.

It's not the FIA's fault. The WTCC & the ETCC are manged and promoted by Eurosport events.

They pay the FIA a fee for the right to use the FIA titles and to organise the series. Just the same as Bernie does with F1, or SRO does with GT or ISC does with the WRC etc. They are the ones who actually decide where and when their events take place, not the FIA.

[Pettersson]

4 races are cut down to 3 now. The event that collided with STCC/DTC has now been cancelled and ETCC now consist of 3 events.

STCC AB and the DTC organisation have talked to FIA and it gave results. They didn't want teams to chose what championship to race in, and now they can compete in both ScandTCC and ETCC.

[Speed-King]

Sanity prevailed.

Even though three races is a little dire... probably impossible, but with the cancellation of the FIA GT2-Series there should be an open slot on the Nürburgring FIA-GT-programme one week before Oschersleben. It would be way cool if they could jump aboard there, but with the history between SRO and KSO I don't think this will happen.

[redshoes]

I think we are all agreed that we are never going to get 4 weekends that don't clash with at least one national series. Maybe the solution to this is dropped scores - allow the drivers to only count their best 6 of 8 races (or 3 of meetings).

That should help ease the scheduling headaches and possibly even increase the number of entries since teams would need to only need to budget for 3 rather than 4 meetings.

[rustyfan]

Franciacorta looks like another start/stop Mickey Mouse track.

[JMeissner]

Tomas Engström joins James Thompson in ETCC:

http://www.touringcartimes.com/article.php?id=4518

[skells22]

well, it is almost upon next weekend but i better warn everyone who is planning to watch this. Motorbikes permitting (i think that the 1st time i said that) you will see Race 1 at 4.30pm & race 2 at 5.00pm both BST (add a hour in CET)

[Valker]

Entry list

12 S2000, 2 SP, 3 S1600

[Alfa Fan]

What a joke. Completely unnecessary series.

[PorscheFanNo1]

Nice feild there... will be a craker to watch. Werent the Flash cars supposed to be there Meissner?