The Future of F3

[Roninho]

Doesn't F3 use the same engine base like many cars in btcc/wtcc use (or used). Like the spanish f3 toyota engine is the same as the lexus is2000 in btcc used to be? So the same length/wide/height/weight dimensions?

Maybe they should 'upgrade' their engine hp to the touring car level (300-350hp)? F3 with an added 100-150 hp should create some extra interest, and shouldn't cost more then a couple of 1000's extra in engine lease. Almost every serie that changed it's technical specs and increased it's speed/hp got more interest, maybe this is an idea.

Obviously i don't know if the f3 monocoque can handle the higher speeds in a crash, but in terms of chassis dimensions (wide/height) they could handle such a touring car engine, right?

(ps: i'm a tech noob, so maybe somebody with tech knowledge can shed some light on this).

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by Roninho

Doesn't F3 use the same engine base like many cars in btcc/wtcc use (or used). Like the spanish f3 toyota engine is the same as the lexus is2000 in btcc used to be? So the same length/wide/height/weight dimensions?

Maybe they should 'upgrade' their engine hp to the touring car level (300-350hp)? F3 with an added 100-150 hp should create some extra interest, and shouldn't cost more then a couple of 1000's extra in engine lease. Almost every serie that changed it's technical specs and increased it's speed/hp got more interest, maybe this is an idea.

Obviously i don't know if the f3 monocoque can handle the higher speeds in a crash, but in terms of chassis dimensions (wide/height) they could handle such a touring car engine, right?

(ps: i'm a tech noob, so maybe somebody with tech knowledge can shed some light on this).

Sounds a great idea in principle Roninho, but that may well make the category even more expensive when what it really needs is to become less so?

[edenrace]

The new engines that will be available in 2013 will indeed have basically the same dimensions as WTCC WRC but without turbos. Power up probably by 35 to 40 BHP from todays 215 but as it has been designed to be stronger will be cheaper to run...more than 1/3 less than todays engines.

[Roninho]

Originally Posted by chunterer

Sounds a great idea in principle Roninho, but that may well make the category even more expensive when what it really needs is to become less so?

well again, i'm a tech noob, but afaik the cost/lease of a btcc/touring car engine won''t be much more expensive then a f3 lease if. As in a marginal impact on a full seasons f3 budget (20k can't be the problem if you have to bring 700k...).

The advantage imo would be that with relatively marginally increasing the cost you'd set f3 up as a good competitor to WSR and other series (if you indeed go the 370+hp versions of the engines).

Obviously i'm not taking into account any extra damages (since the cars go faster there might be more crashes, with more serious damages).

edit: one disadvantage that i didn't think off will be the impact for the national classes, who run with serious lower budgets and there 20k would make a big difference.

[Roninho]

Originally Posted by edenrace

The new engines that will be available in 2013 will indeed have basically the same dimensions as WTCC WRC but without turbos. Power up probably by 35 to 40 BHP from todays 215 but as it has been designed to be stronger will be cheaper to run...more than 1/3 less than todays engines.

This sounds great. Any idea what it would cost to go for the turbo versions?

[Go_For_Pole]

it would probably cost F3 the privillege of making fun of GP3 because its crap turbo sound

in fairness though, if new engines are indeed that cheaper, it's a great first step in saving F3

[strider]

I was keeping an eye on the F1 test this morning and at the same time monitoring Twitter. A reference appeared to an article that could be very important.It said that Gerhard Berger, the new supremo for FIA single-seaters is pushing for a new European F3 Championship combining both British F3 and the F3ES. This would be for 20 13 because it's far too late for this season.

The Germans were said to be very keen on the idea on behalf of the F3ES. There would be half a dozen or so races in Europe, so would be convenient for them. It also seems that the F3ES is struggling most for entries this year.

Those who commented on the idea from the British F3 side were unanimously against it in a polite way. I saw the names of Richard Dutton, Peter Briggs and Lisa Crampton from SRO. They felt that if BF3 could get through this season with 15 entries or so things would pick up next season.

The idea is nothing new. The Germans have been pushing for it for years, even when the F3ES was strong, but I think they wanted world domination back then.

My own view is that I would like to see British F3 stay separate and have at least half a dozen meetings in the UK, as now.

[davyboy]

I think Berger's right. One good series is better than two weak ones. In fact such is the state of these series right now, that it's not inconceivable that neither of them will be around in 2013. It would be unfortunate if 'nationalism' got in the way of a merger, but such is life I guess.

[chunterer]

Have to say i'm still with the separate series idea, but perhaps put a lot of weight behind a 3 race 'best of' mini series/cup or something like that...

[Go_For_Pole]

Merging two flawed series will not solve anything, more than anything it will result in a single, bigger flawed series. The world around us has changed and junior motorsport series should adapt to stay relevant. It shouldn’t be acceptable to have a 600k step in the middle of the junior series ladder, in the same sense that it shouldn’t be acceptable to have 2 million one at the top of the ladder. It shouldn’t be acceptable to fund say aero development or in general junior engineers training out of the pocket of junior drivers. Maybe the market itself will sort this out the hard way by killing non-relevant series (you can see from falling grid sizes which they are) but it’s positive that Berger has proactively set ambitious budget targets for each step. It is obvious from the sums mentioned that F3 will have to change in a big way to meet its target. Effectively it will have to be something in between the current free development F3 and a GP3-like spec formula. Cost cutting on engines as mentioned by edenrace is a good start but for example there should also be consideration on the distribution process from tuner/manufacturer to clients. There should be no room for special engines directly given to the chosen one(s) that killed F3 Euroseries. In karting CIK FIA for their world championship has mandated that all engines from a given supplier are to be pooled at the start of the race meeting before being randomly allocated to clients. Berger should take notice and if can succeed in constraining cost for F3 then there will be no reason for GP3 other than the support slot in GP weekends (which can be arranged commercially with Bernie anyway)

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by Go_For_Pole

Merging two flawed series will not solve anything, more than anything it will result in a single, bigger flawed series. The world around us has changed and junior motorsport series should adapt to stay relevant. It shouldn’t be acceptable to have a 600k step in the middle of the junior series ladder, in the same sense that it shouldn’t be acceptable to have 2 million one at the top of the ladder. It shouldn’t be acceptable to fund say aero development or in general junior engineers training out of the pocket of junior drivers. Maybe the market itself will sort this out the hard way by killing non-relevant series (you can see from falling grid sizes which they are) but it’s positive that Berger has proactively set ambitious budget targets for each step. It is obvious from the sums mentioned that F3 will have to change in a big way to meet its target. Effectively it will have to be something in between the current free development F3 and a GP3-like spec formula. Cost cutting on engines as mentioned by edenrace is a good start but for example there should also be consideration on the distribution process from tuner/manufacturer to clients. There should be no room for special engines directly given to the chosen one(s) that killed F3 Euroseries. In karting CIK FIA for their world championship has mandated that all engines from a given supplier are to be pooled at the start of the race meeting before being randomly allocated to clients. Berger should take notice and if can succeed in constraining cost for F3 then there will be no reason for GP3 other than the support slot in GP weekends (which can be arranged commercially with Bernie anyway)

Yes you're absolutely correct. In the bigger scheme of things, the concept of the 'formula' as it is today is fundamentally flawed... or rather in a spec. series world, outdated. The costs are outrageous to boot.

The problem however is that the FIA has stood by while a confusing myriad of spec. series have overcrowded that step on the junior single seater ladder and I see no evidence that they can or will wrest the situation. This is borne out by the FIA/CIK 'solution' to the world karting championship. The engine lottery is a desperate face saving attempt after the calamity of the KF project which has been little short of a disaster for the sport.

Maybe the solution is to assemble a group of motorsport heavyweights [e.g. Red Bull, Renault, Dallara etc...] who have the resources and vested interests to get something from junior single seater racing... and have them create a set of series that would represent steps on the ladder for a 10 year time frame.

[edenrace]

F3 if you compare miles to the cost it is no more expensive than other similar formulas.
We have one problem, that is too many series trying to compete against each other,Renault Eurocup, German F3, F2, Euro F3,British F3, GP3 are just a few.
This did not happen 10/15 years ago and that is why grids are smaller.
It needs the governing bodies to restrict the number of series and possibly ensure that inexperienced drivers have to go through lower powered series before they jump into 350BHP + cars.

[bella]

Originally Posted by davyboy

I think Berger's right. One good series is better than two weak ones. In fact such is the state of these series right now, that it's not inconceivable that neither of them will be around in 2013. It would be unfortunate if 'nationalism' got in the way of a merger, but such is life I guess.

Originally Posted by chunterer

Have to say i'm still with the separate series idea, but perhaps put a lot of weight behind a 3 race 'best of' mini series/cup or something like that...

i think (as forum resident fence sitter) that the way to go is somewhere in between, and to reverse the 'best of' mini series idea.

i'd like to see a main series of maybe 6 events with 2 races at each, shared between places like spa, monza, and brands hatch gp from the british side and hockenheim, norisring, possibly macau, if not a couple from the dtm side. then i'd like to see "national cup" mini series of 3 or so rounds on the other great circuits from the german or british selection.

to be eligable for the main title you need to compete in either one of the local mini series. there's then scope to set up a national mini series to link into the epic big ones as each country sees fit eg france, perhaps even an eastern european one.

i suppose it's similar to a formula renault 2.0 eurocup setup really.

[chunterer]

I can see they that would be an eminently sensible idea bella, but not with Brands as the plum British round....

Let's have Thruxton!!!!

[ivanalesi]

If F3 is OK per km compared to other series, then why not turn km of testing into km of racing and exposure!?!? If you have 8 race meetings and need 500-650k EU, that's quite a lot per race! Make lots of rounds, create lots of exposure with great marketing and racing, then the situation would be much, much better.
Now F3 racing is boring and it's not in line w/ F1 anymore. In F1 qualifying is not everything, you must have great race craft and mind. These are all issues that are present for so many years and nobody tried to improve them.

[Roninho]

Originally Posted by ivanalesi

If F3 is OK per km compared to other series, then why not turn km of testing into km of racing and exposure!?!? If you have 8 race meetings and need 500-650k EU, that's quite a lot per race! Make lots of rounds, create lots of exposure with great marketing and racing, then the situation would be much, much better.

Exactly. The only issue might be the smaller teams and national class riders who probably aren't doing that much testing anyway, so extra races means extra costs to them.

Also i just think it's a shame that F3 is the only (non-hobby) international serie that i know of with multiple manufacturers involved (for decades) in which the manufacturers don't work on getting exposure. As in making sure that it gets decent broadcast, promotion, etc.

[strider]

Originally Posted by chunterer

I can see they that would be an eminently sensible idea bella, but not with Brands as the plum British round....

Let's have Thruxton!!!!

I would be in favour of Thruxton, because it's the best circuit in the country for overtaking in F3, but the drivers want GP circuits, so it would have to be Silverstone, which also has better facilities.

[bella]

Originally Posted by strider

I would be in favour of Thruxton, because it's the best circuit in the country for overtaking in F3, but the drivers want GP circuits, so it would have to be Silverstone, which also has better facilities.

this is like, the f3 vs one make formulae debate in a nutshell really isn't it?

the circuit that teaches a driver a very specific lesson versus the ones they'll need to use if they ever get to f1.

it's like learning to pass an exam, or learning to make yourself a better, more educated person able to deal with life and what it throws at you, just in a racing career format instead.

/philosophising

[barnettracing]

Originally Posted by bella

this is like, the f3 vs one make formulae debate in a nutshell really isn't it?

the circuit that teaches a driver a very specific lesson versus the ones they'll need to use if they ever get to f1.

it's like learning to pass an exam, or learning to make yourself a better, more educated person able to deal with life and what it throws at you, just in a racing career format instead.

/philosophising

With the rise of simulators coupled with the fact that F1 cars are different beasts to F3 cars (and their calendar is in constant flux), does it really matter if the BF3 (or other junior series) visit GP tracks or not?

I know that WSR or GP2 don't have masses of testing out of season so learning GP tracks could be an advantage but, with the amount of money spent by these 'career drivers', they could quite easily arrange a test day in a simple FRenault to learn these tracks.

This would leave the calendar open to the inclusion of places like Thruxton where the drivers can learn overtaking etc.

Just a thought, apologies for the poor and rambling wording. Earnest Hemingway I am not...

[bella]

that's my opinion too - is it actually possible to learn about and replicate tyre wear in a simulator yet, for example? that's the kind of thing you learn at places like thruxton. tangiable skills, rather than knowing a particular circuit.

[barnettracing]

Originally Posted by bella

that's my opinion too - is it actually possible to learn about and replicate tyre wear in a simulator yet, for example? that's the kind of thing you learn at places like thruxton. tangiable skills, rather than knowing a particular circuit.

Not completely. F1 teams' sims can do so very accurately but that is because they spend a fortune on software/tyre data analysis.

An everyday sim software can't do it realistically, so going to abrasive tracks in real life would certainly help. These sort of tracks, like Thruxton, can't be found at GP venues as the tarmac is billiard table-smooth.

Because the brakes on a modern F1 car are so much better than even a GP2 car, learning GP tracks in an F3 is of little worth. Any decent driver can learn a track in 5-10 laps but finding the perfect braking spots takes longer.

Hence, it'd make more sense to race in a series that visits a multitude of different tracks to build up your repertoire (Thruxton, Donington, Mallory - I know the last one is dreaming for BF3) whilst using a simulator to keep on top of the GP tracks. Then, when you've made the move to GP2/WSR/F1 you can test in real life at the circuits in a FRenault (for example) to get a feel for the place in a racing car before going out and finally taking on the circuit in a Marussia/Caterham/HRT or whatever...

[NaBUru38]

Originally Posted by strider

My own view is that I would like to see British F3 stay separate and have at least half a dozen meetings in the UK, as now.

I agree. Of course F1 and international motorsport would benefit from a single major European F3 championship.

But as Strider says, national Formula 3 championships are needed for national motorsport. If I wanted to run in British GT or BTCC but European F3 were too expensive for me, then I wouldn't be satisfied with just Clio / León Cup or Formula Renault 2.0 - I'd do British F3.

The Italian F3 doesn't seem to be a major F1 feeder. Only a few drivers jump higher in international motorsport. But I'm sure Superstars and Italian GT teams demand F3 drivers.

So, a 6-8 round British F3 that runs in Oulton Park, Snetterton, Thruxton and Rockingham would attract less promising stars than now, but would still attract professional drivers.

But we can't believe SRO will like to lose their championship just like that.

[bella]

Originally Posted by barnettracing

Hence, it'd make more sense to race in a series that visits a multitude of different tracks to build up your repertoire (Thruxton, Donington, Mallory - I know the last one is dreaming for BF3) whilst using a simulator to keep on top of the GP tracks. Then, when you've made the move to GP2/WSR/F1 you can test in real life at the circuits in a FRenault (for example) to get a feel for the place in a racing car before going out and finally taking on the circuit in a Marussia/Caterham/HRT or whatever...

going off topic a bit (well, a lot) it surprises me a little that none of the big organisers like rpm (who look after the wsr event) haven't invested in a simulator (or rented one for a block of time) and put their new car "on it" as it were. then they could have monetarised the time that everyone has spent twiddling their thumbs. they'd have to impose a maximum time per driver and engineer i guess, so as to not to end up with a couple of specialist teams and drivers who already know the car inside out. by doing it quickly and exclusively they could have had a nice little business going, much like big money tons of assets teams do now.

fwiw there's always the rich teams and drivers tinkering around in non-f3 cars at the circuits - remember the piquet f3 with mudguards drama?

[bella]

the f3 trophy has been revised to be... the f3 european championship.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/97930

all that does is seriously undermine both the euroseries and the british series surely?

[barnettracing]

Great move . So now all we've got is three expensive championships as opposed to two?

Also, I know that the two most prominent F3 engines are from Germany, but surely having 4 rounds in Deutschland is overkill when there is only one round actually in Britain (Brands Hatch). Yes, there are two rounds from BF3 but both are foreign - Monza and Pau. Surely a proper FIA European championship better taking in rounds in France, Spain, Italy, Germany, Britain etc?

The problem with F3 (like all motor racing at the moment) is that it is too expensive for people to take part. I was looking back at some F2 races from the 70s. They had two full heats of cars at Thruxton in 1971. 50 cars in F2! Yes, I know times have changed, but when budgets are £750K for a season, there are only so many rich people out there who want to go motor racing...