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Old 20 Nov 2018, 19:43 (Ref:3864569)   #1
AndySpeed
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AndySpeed should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
1991 DTM

I'm researching the 1991 DTM season and have some questions that perhaps people on here can help with. I've already used the 'Tourenwagen Story '91' book and Frank de Jong's (RIP) excellent website, but haven't been able to dig deeper on some of the other issues.

In particular I'm a bit confused as to how the qualifying system worked. It seems that from the fourth event onwards it was a timed qualifying session first, with the drivers from 17th onwards having to duke it out in a qualifying race.

But how the drivers who went into that qualifying race were decided is eluding me a bit for the first three events. Frank's website says that "Grid positions 1-16 decided in split qualifying (even/odd numbers, grid in order of results per group)" but I'm not completely clear on this. What does that mean?

If we take Frank Biela, for example, who won the qualifying race at the second event at Hockenheimring, his qualifying time was 2:15.31 - which was faster than Frank Jelinski, who according to 'Tourenwagen Story '91' didn't have to go into the qualifying race... but Frank did.

Any further interesting discussion on the 1991 DTM is welcomed. Further kudos if you can point me in the direction of other reliable sources.
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Old 20 Nov 2018, 20:01 (Ref:3864574)   #2
morninggents
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morninggents should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
From what you have written it appears to me that qualifying was split in to two groups (presumably because the number of cars trying to qualify exceded the number allowed under the track license) in different sessions. As the weather/track conditions could have been different in each session the top eight in each group would qualify for the main race. This could mean that a driver (Jelinski) would be an automatic qualifier if in the top 8 of his group whereas another driver (Biela) would not be an automatic qualifier if placed outside the top 8 in his group despite having a quicker qualifying time. Presumably those outside the top 8 in each group went in to the qualifying race where an agreed number (presumably up to the maximum track license number) proceded to the main race.
Seems fair to me.
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Old 20 Nov 2018, 20:28 (Ref:3864586)   #3
EarlCdwards
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EarlCdwards should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
The split qualifying system mentioned by morninggents sounds correct, it was used in the German Superbike championship at that time as well. For example, if the drivers were split into groups E (even numbers) and O (odd numbers), the top qualifier in whichever group was fastest would be awarded pole position, the top qualifier in the other group would be 2nd on the grid, and the rest of the positions would be allocated alternately between the groups, in order of time within their respective sessions. Then the top 16 from that combined classification would automatically qualify for race 1, while the remainder went into the qualifying race.

This is how it would have looked for round 2 at Hockenheim:

Qualifying - Even Number Group
Code:
Pos   #     Driver                    Time
1     12    Armin Hahne, D            2.14.21 *fastest overall time
2     8     Klaus Ludwig, D           2.14.43
3     10    Jacques Laffite, F        2.14.53
4     4     Joachim Winkelhock, D     2.14.71
5     22    Frank Schmickler, D       2.15.06
6     18    Fabien Giroix, F          2.15.43
7     78    Ellen Lohr, D             2.15.52
8     44    Frank Jelinski, D         2.16.28
9     16    Altfrid Heger, D          2.16.90
10    2     Hubert Haupt, D           2.16.93
11    14    Ralf Kelleners, D         2.16.95
12    32    Otto Rensing, D           2.17.71
13    26    Alain Ferté, F            2.18.06
14    36    Franz Engstler, D         2.18.13
15    28    Kurt König, D             2.18.46
16    34    Luca Maggiorelli, I       2.18.46
17    30    Leopold von Bayern, D     2.19.10
18    66    Peter Oberndorfer, D      2.22.68
19    50    Armin Bernhard, D         2.23.29
Qualifying - Odd Number Group
Code:
Pos   #     Driver                    Time
1     19    Roland Asch, D            2.14.27
2     9     Alain Cudini, F           2.14.47
3     11    Steve Soper, GB           2.14.61
4     1     Hans-Joachim Stuck, D     2.14.76
5     7     Kurt Thiim, DK            2.14.77
6     23    Jörg van Ommen, D         2.15.05
7     5     Kris Nissen, DK           2.15.05
8     3     Johnny Cecotto, YV        2.15.11
9     45    Frank Biela, D            2.15.31
10    31    Christian Danner, D       2.16.20
11    87    Fritz Kreutzpointner, D   2.16.48
12    37    Volker Strycek, D         2.16.65
13    15    Dieter Quester, A         2.16.92
14    13    Peter Zakowski, D         2.17.22
15    25    Klaus Niedzwiedz, D       2.19.32
16    39    Franz Dufter, D           2.19.35
17    55    Harald Becker, D          2.21.57
18    17    Anette Meeuvissen, D      2.21.99
Combined Qualifying Classification
Code:
Pos   #     Driver                    Time        Grp.
1     12    Armin Hahne, D            2.14.21     E
2     19    Roland Asch, D            2.14.27     O
3     8     Klaus Ludwig, D           2.14.43     E
4     9     Alain Cudini, F           2.14.47     O
5     10    Jacques Laffite, F        2.14.53     E
6     11    Steve Soper, GB           2.14.61     O
7     4     Joachim Winkelhock, D     2.14.71     E
8     1     Hans-Joachim Stuck, D     2.14.76     O
9     22    Frank Schmickler, D       2.15.06     E
10    7     Kurt Thiim, DK            2.14.77     O
11    18    Fabien Giroix, F          2.15.43     E
12    23    Jörg van Ommen, D         2.15.05     O
13    78    Ellen Lohr, D             2.15.52     E
14    5     Kris Nissen, DK           2.15.05     O
15    44    Frank Jelinski, D         2.16.28     E
16    3     Johnny Cecotto, YV        2.15.11     O
---------- Qualification Race cutoff -----------
17    16    Altfrid Heger, D          2.16.90     E
18    45    Frank Biela, D            2.15.31     O
19    2     Hubert Haupt, D           2.16.93     E
20    31    Christian Danner, D       2.16.20     O
21    14    Ralf Kelleners, D         2.16.95     E
22    87    Fritz Kreutzpointner, D   2.16.48     O
23    32    Otto Rensing, D           2.17.71     E
24    37    Volker Strycek, D         2.16.65     O
25    26    Alain Ferté, F            2.18.06     E
26    15    Dieter Quester, A         2.16.92     O
27    36    Franz Engstler, D         2.18.13     E
28    13    Peter Zakowski, D         2.17.22     O
29    28    Kurt König, D             2.18.46     E
30    25    Klaus Niedzwiedz, D       2.19.32     O
31    34    Luca Maggiorelli, I       2.18.46     E
32    39    Franz Dufter, D           2.19.35     O
33    30    Leopold von Bayern, D     2.19.10     E
34    55    Harald Becker, D          2.21.57     O
35    66    Peter Oberndorfer, D      2.22.68     E
36    17    Anette Meeuvissen, D      2.21.99     O
37    50    Armin Bernhard, D         2.23.29     E

Last edited by EarlCdwards; 20 Nov 2018 at 20:35.
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Old 20 Nov 2018, 22:48 (Ref:3864614)   #4
AndySpeed
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AndySpeed should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Thanks very much morninggents and EarlCdwards, that solves the not-so-cryptic mystery. It seems to be a similar system to that even used in ADAC TCR Germany recently in 2017.

It helps me piece together the starting grid for race one. Grids for race two in 1991 are harder, and I believe if a driver had an issue / accident in race one and had to use the T-car (Ersatzauto / spare car) in race two then they were sent to the back of the grid for that race.
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Old 22 Nov 2018, 20:09 (Ref:3865073)   #5
AndySpeed
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AndySpeed should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
EarlCdwards, just checked Tourenwagen Story and it doesn't quite match your data. Frank Schmickler is listed as P12 from the times, not P9... and some other differences from P8 through to P16.

The positions 1 to 16 in the below data are from Tourenwagen Story 91, the positions 17 to 37 are from Frank de Jong's site data as Tourenwagen Story only then listed the qualifying race result.

I suspect they used E-O system to decide who made it through and who had to go into the qualifying race, but then the top sixteen grid itself was actually based on the fastest lap times of those top sixteen - hence how Tourenwagen Story has Kurt Thiim in ninth and Frank Schmickler in 12th.

Any further thoughts? Trying to understand this properly.

Code:
PL.   NR.   DRIVER             TIME    Overall Rank
1.   12   Armin Hahne         2:14.21   1
2.   19   Roland Asch         2:14.27   2
3.   8    Klaus Ludwig        2:14.41   3
4.   9    Alain Cudini        2:14.47   4
5.   10   Jacques Laffite     2:14.53   5
6.   11   Steve Soper         2:14.61   6
7.   4    Joachim Winkelhock  2:14.71   7
8.   1    Hans-Joachim Stuck  2:14.76   8
9.   7    Kurt Thiim          2:14.77   9
10.  5    Kris Nissen         2:15.05   10
11.  23   Jörg van Ommen      2:15.05   11
12.  22   Frank Schmickler    2:15.06   12
13.  3    Johnny Cecotto      2:15.11   13
14.  18   Fabien Giroix       2:15.43   15
15.  78   Ellen Lohr          2:15.52   16
16.  44   Frank Jelinski      2:16.28   18
----- Qualifying race cutoff -----
17.  45   Frank Biela         2:15.31   14
18.  16   Altfrid Heger       2:16.90   21
19.  31   Christian Danner    2:16.20   17
20.  2    Hubert Haupt        2:16.93   23
21.  87   Fritz Kreuzpointer  2:16.48   19
22.  14   Ralf Kelleners      2:16.95   24
23.  37   Volker Strycek      2:16.65   20
24.  32   Otto Rensing        2:17.71   26
25.  15   Dieter Quester      2:16.92   22
26.  26   Alain Ferté         2:18.06   27
27.  13   Peter Zakowski      2:17.22   25
28.  36   Franz Engstler      2:18.13   28
29.  25   Klaus Niedzwiedz    2:19.32   32
30.  28   Kurt König          2:18.46   29
31.  39   Franz Dufter        2:19.35   33
32.  34   Luca Maggiorelli    2:18.46   30
33.  55   Harald Becker       2:21.57   34
34.  30   Leopold von Bayern  2:19.10   31
35.  17   Annette Meeuvissen  2:21.99   35
36.  66   Peter Oberndorfer   2:22.68   36
37.  50   Armin Bernhard      2:23.29   37
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Old 22 Nov 2018, 20:27 (Ref:3865077)   #6
EarlCdwards
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EarlCdwards should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
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Originally Posted by AndySpeed View Post
I suspect they used E-O system to decide who made it through and who had to go into the qualifying race, but then the top sixteen grid itself was actually based on the fastest lap times of those top sixteen - hence how Tourenwagen Story has Kurt Thiim in ninth and Frank Schmickler in 12th.
That's definitely possible. This is where TV coverage comes in! The full race is on YouTube, I don't know DTM well enough to recognise each car but if you look at the actual starting positions it should let you work out which system they used for defining the starting order:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QY1kBbWxylc
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