The Porsche vs Ferrari (or Badger vs brielga) thread

[Dani Filth]

the Z4 has the same engine as the M3GT2? .. 4.4l V8
the 993 didn't really have competition until the Vipers

[Spyderman]

Originally Posted by Brake dust

^ GT3R?

Yes.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Spyderman

I'm not sure everyone heard the rumor from Hindy on MWM. Apparently there will be no factory RSR's in GTE for 2016. Porsche is working on a new car for 2017. Apparently mid-engine.

Great news if this is true. I hope this is a sign that Porsche is finally confident enough to put the best car forward that they can vs. placing the 911 at the top of GT racing as a way to elevate it's status. It has only taken a number of decades.

What street car will be the basis for this? The rumored competitor to the Ferrari 458/488 that would sit between the 911 and 918 in the Porsche lineup or will it be a GT version of the Cayman?

Richard

[Mike Hedlund]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

What street car will be the basis for this? The rumored competitor to the Ferrari 458/488 that would sit between the 911 and 918 in the Porsche lineup or will it be a GT version of the Cayman?

Richard

There's no way it would happen with the Cayman. Just because it's mid-engine doesn't make it a better platform than the current 911.

-mike

[carbon_titanium]

unlikely there will be a 991 RSR 2016 specs... the main problem is the engine! 991 RSR basically uses the 997 GT3 RSR motor, that is clearly too weak and most of all insanely down on torque compared to the predictable >600Nm of new (and old) C7R, new 488, bmw and ford GT.
Right now the engine revs already over 8000rpm and barely can reach 480hp... it would need a huge rework and updates (or maybe a fresh new one) to keep the engine competitive and reliable as well... better wait for the "918 baby"

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Mike Hedlund

There's no way it would happen with the Cayman. Just because it's mid-engine doesn't make it a better platform than the current 911.

-mike

I really may not have much of a leg to stand on given your resume. And I don't want to take anything away from the 911 and it's inherent advantages on track. But all things being equal... yeah, it does. And to be clear I am focusing on the inherent advantage of mid-engine placement (lower polar moment, blah, blah) AND that broadly speaking the 911 and Boxster/Cayman line (base cars) share many engineering similarities. The two platforms are not very different beside engine placement.

However the answer will always be more complex than that. I tend to think it is not going to be the Cayman for a few reasons...

1. I "think" that while the Cayman/Boxster can/does implement the same engine as in the 911 (+/-) I think there actually is some packaging issues. It just may not be a good home for the existing GTE engine?

2. If Porsche is going to go to the trouble of moving away from the 911 to something else, I think they would not make an incremental move (911 to Cayman), but more likely a larger step. Hence the potential for it being a totally different car. Thinking out loud... Might they want to move away from a strut front suspension? Maybe a bespoke compact V engine? Something much more like the Ferrari 458/488 as a starting point? Also if they do plan to fight Ferrari in that particular segment, why not allow them to go head to head on track as well from a marketing perspective?

But if I am wrong (and my wife tells me I am all the time!) point out the errors in my logic.

Cheers,

Richard

[nickyf1]

It almost sounds like we're going back to manufacturers building homologation specials.

The 911 has always been Porsche's customer offering for lower categories, and with GTE going the way it is, it really does demand something drastic.

[carbsmith]

Originally Posted by carbon_titanium

unlikely there will be a 991 RSR 2016 specs... the main problem is the engine! 991 RSR basically uses the 997 GT3 RSR motor, that is clearly too weak and most of all insanely down on torque compared to the predictable >600Nm of new (and old) C7R, new 488, bmw and ford GT.
Right now the engine revs already over 8000rpm and barely can reach 480hp... it would need a huge rework and updates (or maybe a fresh new one) to keep the engine competitive and reliable as well... better wait for the "918 baby"

They can built a turbo 911 GTE car now anyways. Actually in terms of homologation the model the RSR is currently based on will be a turbo next year.

Conceivably 2017 lines up with the possible introduction of the new 911 GT2 but there seems little reason to wait for that.

[Articus]

The motor in the M6 should be mega.

[Spyderman]

I have just had "confirmation" (from a good source) that mid-engine Porsche is in fact coming in 2017.

[rich07]

Please bring back a turbo Porsche into GT racing. I loved the original GT2R in 993 form and to a lesser extent the various 996 Turbos that entered Belcar and VLN in the early 2000s.

[Spyderman]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

I really may not have much of a leg to stand on given your resume. And I don't want to take anything away from the 911 and it's inherent advantages on track. But all things being equal... yeah, it does. And to be clear I am focusing on the inherent advantage of mid-engine placement (lower polar moment, blah, blah) AND that broadly speaking the 911 and Boxster/Cayman line (base cars) share many engineering similarities. The two platforms are not very different beside engine placement.

However the answer will always be more complex than that. I tend to think it is not going to be the Cayman for a few reasons...

1. I "think" that while the Cayman/Boxster can/does implement the same engine as in the 911 (+/-) I think there actually is some packaging issues. It just may not be a good home for the existing GTE engine?

2. If Porsche is going to go to the trouble of moving away from the 911 to something else, I think they would not make an incremental move (911 to Cayman), but more likely a larger step. Hence the potential for it being a totally different car. Thinking out loud... Might they want to move away from a strut front suspension? Maybe a bespoke compact V engine? Something much more like the Ferrari 458/488 as a starting point? Also if they do plan to fight Ferrari in that particular segment, why not allow them to go head to head on track as well from a marketing perspective?

But if I am wrong (and my wife tells me I am all the time!) point out the errors in my logic.

Cheers,

Richard

I have no guarantee yet Richard as at this point in time my source cannot say too much, but I suspect it wont be Cayman based. He says the car looks awesome!

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Spyderman

...but I suspect it wont be Cayman based.

I apologize as this is somewhat more of the same, but in addition to the long time speculation here about a new car, there apparently has been a lot of talk in the automotive press around an expected new model in the Porsche lineup. Quote from Matthias Müller at Geneva Auto Show...

"For example, in the not too distant future we will present a seventh model series. But I am not yet able to tell you exactly when this will happen. There are already promising plans, but no board decision yet."

http://www.autoblog.com/2015/03/13/p...rrari-fighter/

However what that car might be is unknown. Rumors include an all electric Tesla competitor, another is the "Pajun" which a new sedan that is smaller than the Panamera (get it, Pajun = Panamera Junior), and lastly a car that fits in the pricing/performance gap between the 911 and 918 "aka Ferrari Fighter". Maybe there is multiple models in the works, maybe the Pajun is the same as the Tesla competitor and yet still a second car being the one we are talking about for GT racing?

Maybe Porsche is going to do something similar to Ford and showing up with a new car and announce they are going to go racing with it at the same time? If that is the case, when might we expect an announcement? Frankfurt in September? Tokyo in October? LA in November? Sometime in 2016?

Richard

[Spyderman]

From what I understood from RLM, they will be granted a waver initially, so no road car announcement until end of 2017 or start of 2018.

[Coach Ep]

That's just great...

The new 2016 rules haven't even seen one race run and there's already talk about a waiver! And that after the FIA/ACO have repeatedly and publicly said they want less waivers...

[Spyderman]

Originally Posted by Coach Ep

That's just great...

The new 2016 rules haven't even seen one race run and there's already talk about a waiver! And that after the FIA/ACO have repeatedly and publicly said they want less waivers...

That part is still a rumor so don't take it as fact....yet.

[J Jay]

They want more manufacturers first and foremost, the numbers of waivers they need to get there is at best a secondary concern.

And as Spyderman said, let's at least wait until the cars are on track before moaning about who has what waiver(s) and for what reasons.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by Coach Ep

That's just great...

The new 2016 rules haven't even seen one race run and there's already talk about a waiver! And that after the FIA/ACO have repeatedly and publicly said they want less waivers...

Are we supposed to be surprised about this?

[TF110]

Who cares? Theyre going to make a road car of it. Its like the controversy over the Ford GT having 100 examples made before it races.

[Deleted]

Lol this hopeless of most hopeless moves assures that Ferrari will still only have two bullets in the gun at LM this year. However, it does make it easier to predict the first retirement of the race (if he gets stint in first hours)! Oh Risi, how low you've fallen. It's like giving Jaime Melo a second chance. Only weaker choice would've been that $$$ Perrodo fella that fooled around with #51 AF Corse sometime back
http://sportscar365.com/lemans/leman...r-24h-le-mans/

Anyway, Porsche GTE 2017 to be announced soon I guess for those that care.

[Creep89]

I don't understand that choice. Does Malucelli bring some bags of money to Risi?

[Victor_RO]

Originally Posted by Chiana

Only weaker choice would've been that $$$ Perrodo fella that fooled around with #51 AF Corse sometime back

He's doing the full WEC in the #83 car in GTE-Am (aka the only 458 left in the WEC field).

[carbon_titanium]

Originally Posted by Creep89

I don't understand that choice. Does Malucelli bring some bags of money to Risi?

he didn't in the past, when a was a ferrari pseudo work driver in 2013 and early 2014. Now maybe he does, but agree, ferrari GT driver program is pretty weak compared to audi or porsche.

[joeb]

Originally Posted by Chiana

Lol this hopeless of most hopeless moves assures that Ferrari will still only have two bullets in the gun at LM this year. However, it does make it easier to predict the first retirement of the race (if he gets stint in first hours)! Oh Risi, how low you've fallen. It's like giving Jaime Melo a second chance. Only weaker choice would've been that $$$ Perrodo fella that fooled around with #51 AF Corse sometime back
http://sportscar365.com/lemans/leman...r-24h-le-mans/

Anyway, Porsche GTE 2017 to be announced soon I guess for those that care.

Isn't he the guy who was canned by Risi after wrecking cars a couple years ago?

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by joeb

Isn't he the guy who was canned by Risi after wrecking cars a couple years ago?

Indeed Risi canned him... as did the series with temporary ban