2011 Radical Cup Series

[inpitlane]

Originally Posted by Dasher

snip...
Seen it all before like the Mirage & Lotus series, possibly the current Mini and Aussie RC series and others over the years and the unfortunate part is that people keep falling for the hype then get left holding the baby, when are we going to say enough is enough.

When we get an organising body that's prepared to look at the long term future of the sport and not at the next cash handout from one of these series.
I'm all for a small bore sports car series such as IMSA lites but it needs to open to as many manufacturers as possible, including local ones.

[Silver 3]

Originally Posted by inpitlane

When we get an organising body that's prepared to look at the long term future of the sport and not at the next cash handout from one of these series.
I'm all for a small bore sports car series such as IMSA lites but it needs to open to as many manufacturers as possible, including local ones.

Well said -- and also to the many that have expressed this type of sentiment.
Without wanting to bore too many people----BUT---- if you want to avoid the mistakes made in history by other categories that lost control of the competitors interests to the biggest bag of money--BEWARE.
CAMS have been complicit in creating/forcing/manouvering/ you name it-the net effect is to remove the rights of individual competitors.
How can it be avoided--- the only hope is to get an association going that is is not controlled by someone or their commercial interests. This is easier said than done-- commercial money is all CAMS will really want to hear so the individual interests will not get a look in if they are not carefull.
What the category ought to cater for is this-- a set of regulations that categorises around engine type/size,weight,minimums & maximums on body specs, --plus some way to get the already log booked CAMS 2C cars( some of which are the Future racers,Aussie racers-- after throwing away thoses ridiculous bodies) all eligible.
I would go one step further--In Championship recognition I would like to see CAMS category 2A SportsCars included. That would create a Championship for a number of classes-- so eg --if West/Radical or anyone else wanted the create classes within the classes then it is possible--- if in time this becomes the overwhelming success it could--then--and only then-- maybe another one make could spin out of the bigger series.
Everyone's interests can be served -and you can create a situation where everyone gets what they want.
Personally --this type of Sports Racing cars has been missing for far too long-- That is why I would allow a 5000cc SportsRacer to run and evolve,the motorcycle engined lightweights etc that would work and capture people's imagination..

[Falcadore]

Originally Posted by Silver 3

I would go one step further--In Championship recognition I would like to see CAMS category 2A SportsCars included. That would create a Championship for a number of classes-- so eg --if West/Radical or anyone else wanted the create classes within the classes then it is possible--- if in time this becomes the overwhelming success it could--then--and only then-- maybe another one make could spin out of the bigger series.
Everyone's interests can be served -and you can create a situation where everyone gets what they want.
Personally --this type of Sports Racing cars has been missing for far too long-- That is why I would allow a 5000cc SportsRacer to run and evolve,the motorcycle engined lightweights etc that would work and capture people's imagination..

What history has shown time and again is that multiple class based racing inevitably fails. Sometimes it starts very well and promisingly, but eventually everyone wants to move up to faster classes, and new competitors do not fill in the lower levels. At the same time costs in the top class are driven upwards and the class falters because attention gets focussed on the top class when it's burgeoning and folk lose interest completely in the slower classes. By the time the top class starts to falter from cost blow outs there is nowhere to drop back to because the small/slow cars have disappeared.

It's happened in Group C, started to in Group A when the whole class failed, Bathurst, Australian Sports Car Championship, Production Cars, then PROCAR etc... and its happening again today with Historic Touring Cars (Group N) and to a lesser extent Improved Production. What happened to Group Na?

This isn't just a local development. World Sportscar Championship. Le Mans has to re-invent itself every other decade to avoid this, as has the Spa 24 Hour. The continual re-invention of entry level Production Sports in Europe that saw rapid cost escalations in GT2, then GT3, then GT4, how far away is creation of GT5?

How do you propose to avoid this?

[Silver 3]

The problem is that to narrow a criteria initially prevents different streams of thought.We have become infatuated with trying to make everyone the same-or equal as it keeps getting expressed.
To answer your question-- this type of car is less likely to suffer the inflationary cost aspect that others have seen--it will attract more thinkers and tinkerers as distinct from the corporate entertainers.The cars are more technical and will attract more of the owner/driver/engineer types-and hopefully take us back to more independent thinking!
The class concept--it costs more to refine cars in the 10ths of a second than to put a bigger engine in it to go much faster- so it becomes a disincentive to keep spending money. Even the smallest engined cars will mostly probably be beyond the drivers ability to maximise the package etc-- I am sure you follow the logic of this argument.
Classes can and do work -what it does need is the recognition from within to promote class groups and the race within the race( commentators need to be on the case too!)
The reason I would include as wider spread as possible-- categories need to pay their way on programs(the reality) and to many people think 16,18,20 or 24 makes a race-- to get 24 needs a pool of about 4 times that number to draw on.When a class grows to potentially self supporting numbers then spin it off-- I doubt that this group will ever get to that point.

[cptkablamo]

To be fair to Radical, they have been on about expansion to Australia for a few years now, plus there is no coordinated national series that I really know of...(yes there are good state based ones, but on a bigger scale?)

Radical know how to do this, they have done it may times before and are, very much a trusted company and were the ones, many years ago, to perfect the motorcycle engine in a car thing...

This Series would make a nice change from the rest, I hope it works

[Woolley]

There are various Radical series running up here and across Europe. Cars are pretty reliable, fairly fast and turn out in huge numbers suggesting they are both economical and enjoyable to drive. Unfortunately, for reasons I've never quite understood, they are deadly dull to watch. They shouldn't be, but they are.

[bazil]

Originally Posted by Woolley

Unfortunately, for reasons I've never quite understood, they are deadly dull to watch. They shouldn't be, but they are.

Similar thing happened with Formula Holden/Brabham, very fast open wheel cars that sounded terrible. I remember being a guest of Rothmans at the Creek in the nineties and being initially super excited from all I had heard about these cars. The racing was good with some very handy drivers but the just did not look and sound, fast from a spectators view.

[Silver 3]

Originally Posted by Woolley

There are various Radical series running up here and across Europe. Cars are pretty reliable, fairly fast and turn out in huge numbers suggesting they are both economical and enjoyable to drive. Unfortunately, for reasons I've never quite understood, they are deadly dull to watch. They shouldn't be, but they are.

The deadly dull part comes from one make/type series that all have identical performance characteristics.The concept is illogical( ie one type) in the sense that we keep hearing about being equal-but many other issues go to make things equal.
The deadly dull part is why we should not fall for the trap of giving one make a leg up to the detriment of everyone else.The potential to make interest in a series is to have different directions--and allow for egineering differences.
I recall a race in the AMRS at QR in 2007 between these types of cars that was really good race and interesting to watch--and I think at least 4 different manufacturers were involved there.
In Europe the NZ conceived Saker ( WRX engines) races as a one make also-- a car capable of being self built and raced by semi skilled individuals is an example of why I believe no doors should be closed in creating a series.There are numerous people already constructing motor cycle engined cars -- something that there is no reason to exclude them-so why not make the regs wide enough to accommadate all schools of thought and ambition.

[Silver 3]

What about some of you that have a direct stake or are considering these type of cars commenting on how they see it?
Presume nothing from who you may see as leaders -a lot of strange things seem to happen in these process's.

[cptkablamo]

Yeah, that AMRS race in 07 was a doosy, but for whatever reason, taking this style of racing national hasn't worked...maybe it does need someone with the experience of Radical to make it work...although not a fan of the 1 make stuff...

But I too love that Saker...and we seem to have a few importers and manufacturers of this style of car in Oz, so it should be something with potential - for a national Championship

[mtpanorama]

Originally Posted by cptkablamo

Yeah, that AMRS race in 07 was a doosy, but for whatever reason, taking this style of racing national hasn't worked...maybe it does need someone with the experience of Radical to make it work...although not a fan of the 1 make stuff...

Maybe it is because the majority of competitors don't want to do a national series. it costs a lot of money to travel around the country chasing a championship. Just my thoughts.

[Denosaur]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

Looks like the importer, with assistance from the manufacturer in the UK.

They're nice people down there at Classic Throttle Shop.
Doubt there would be any problems with them like another motor bike powered series.

[Silver 3]

Originally Posted by mtpanorama

Maybe it is because the majority of competitors don't want to do a national series. it costs a lot of money to travel around the country chasing a championship. Just my thoughts.

That is a major factor that leads me to the view that your eligibility needs to be as wide as possible.Once established you can get cleverer.!

[Falcadore]

Originally Posted by cptkablamo

Yeah, that AMRS race in 07 was a doosy, but for whatever reason, taking this style of racing national hasn't worked...maybe it does need someone with the experience of Radical to make it work...although not a fan of the 1 make stuff...

But I too love that Saker...and we seem to have a few importers and manufacturers of this style of car in Oz, so it should be something with potential - for a national Championship

Part of the problem is some cars are 2A legal or 2C legal under CAMS regs and some are not. AMRC (running AASA regs) didn't care about that and invited all comers but once AMRC collapsed those running cars like the Saker (with a Subaru Impreza turbo motor it's not 2C legal and I'm not sure about 2A either as I think there is a turbo ban there), or IMSA Lites cars like the Litespeed or West cars, centrally seated with no token passenger seat that makes them 2A illegal if memory serves.

By the same token you have a car like Steve Morcombe's Chiron-Toyota which is 2A legal and a driver car/combination capable of spanking every sports racing car in the country this side a historic Le Mans car Porsche/Sauber/Lola, and did so at the one time Steve (recovering from a dislocated shoulder) raced against the AMRC Wests, to the point that West promoters were grumbling about excluding car-engined Sportscars from their series.

So you have eligibility issues for some cars, and fear of another standout car which in theory has a Bowe/Veskanda like presence over the concept.

[PVDA]

Originally Posted by bazil

Similar thing happened with Formula Holden/Brabham, very fast open wheel cars that sounded terrible.

When the category was created it was a great idea but Holden supplied the engines and obviously must've put pressure on them to pick the V6 as the majority of us trackside have always believed they should've used the V8 as it would've almost been the rebirth of Formula 5000.

Oh the sound of a full field of unmuffled F5000's coming over Rothmans Rise at Sandown

[Silver 3]

Originally Posted by PVDA

When the category was created it was a great idea but Holden supplied the engines and obviously must've put pressure on them to pick the V6 as the majority of us trackside have always believed they should've used the V8 as it would've almost been the rebirth of Formula 5000.

Oh the sound of a full field of unmuffled F5000's coming over Rothmans Rise at Sandown

F5000-For those that remember- the ground shook as they came!
The AMRS also saw the F3000 V8 Lexus engined car of Bob Muir which sounded fantastic(2007) -- would be a great relatively cheap sportscar engine in the type of car/category I can see working.

[bludvl_x19]

Ah, the F5000's...the REAL V8 Supercar
Watching them at the AGP this year was awesome....

And the OZBOSS series was quite good, I like the concept of run what you brung, and hope you brung enough.

[ForumNick]

The only problem with the majority of the F5000s was the inevitable "Lola Limp"!

But that aside... They were (in sight & sound) AWESOME !!!

Oran Park in the 70s... WOW!!!

[Falcadore]

Originally Posted by PVDA

When the category was created it was a great idea but Holden supplied the engines and obviously must've put pressure on them to pick the V6 as the majority of us trackside have always believed they should've used the V8 as it would've almost been the rebirth of Formula 5000.

Oh the sound of a full field of unmuffled F5000's coming over Rothmans Rise at Sandown

A twenty year old carburetted engine? That was never going to happen. The Buick V6 engine was picked before Holden officially came on board.

A more powerful engine than a four was needed so what were the options, the Holden grey motor? The Ford 250 crossflow? The varying V8s? Chrysler Hemi??? All these engines were 20 year old motors. This was the first new over four cylinder engine to see Australia since the 1960s. The engine selected itself, there was never another viable option.

The flat engine note came from the single exhaust system. After a few years a twin exhaust started to fix it, but really, the public didn't support Formula 5000 back in the day. The Australian domestic race fan just doesn't care for open wheelers. Wouldn't matter what they were powered by.

[bludvl_x19]

Originally Posted by Falcadore

The Australian domestic race fan just doesn't care for open wheelers.

Aint that the truth....

[Woolley]

Originally Posted by Silver 3

The deadly dull part comes from one make/type series that all have identical performance characteristics.The concept is illogical( ie one type) in the sense that we keep hearing about being equal-but many other issues go to make things equal.

While I agree in principal about one-make racing, that's not the case here. At the recent LMS meeting, two Radical races had cars in about 5 different classes of varying performance. Racing was actually quite reasonable, with overtaking and battles, and yet still it was tedious. Like cats, I want to like them, but I just can't!

[bazil]

Originally Posted by Falcadore

After a few years a twin exhaust started to fix it, but really, the public didn't support Formula 5000 back in the day. The Australian domestic race fan just doesn't care for open wheelers. Wouldn't matter what they were powered by.

The missing V8 growl was my point but did not want to be toweled for a V8 reference..

The Tasman series was pretty handy??

I am not so sure about the Australian public not supporting F5000, I saw some pretty big crowds watch them at Surfers Paradise, Sandown and Oran Park in the Seventies. Open wheelers may never be followed like tin tops are here but the 5000's were without question the purple patch for this form of racing. Matich, McCormack, Leffler and old mate Vern were great to watch and those cars were sex on wheels.

[Falcadore]

Originally Posted by bazil

The missing V8 growl was my point but did not want to be toweled for a V8 reference..

The Tasman series was pretty handy??

I am not so sure about the Australian public not supporting F5000, I saw some pretty big crowds watch them at Surfers Paradise, Sandown and Oran Park in the Seventies. Open wheelers may never be followed like tin tops are here but the 5000's were without question the purple patch for this form of racing. Matich, McCormack, Leffler and old mate Vern were great to watch and those cars were sex on wheels.

They didn't stay supporting them though did they? By their final season they had all but disappeared through collective apathy.

[cptkablamo]

Originally Posted by Falcadore

Part of the problem is some cars are 2A legal or 2C legal under CAMS regs and some are not. AMRC (running AASA regs) didn't care about that and invited all comers but once AMRC collapsed those running cars like the Saker (with a Subaru Impreza turbo motor it's not 2C legal and I'm not sure about 2A either as I think there is a turbo ban there), or IMSA Lites cars like the Litespeed or West cars, centrally seated with no token passenger seat that makes them 2A illegal if memory serves.

By the same token you have a car like Steve Morcombe's Chiron-Toyota which is 2A legal and a driver car/combination capable of spanking every sports racing car in the country this side a historic Le Mans car Porsche/Sauber/Lola, and did so at the one time Steve (recovering from a dislocated shoulder) raced against the AMRC Wests, to the point that West promoters were grumbling about excluding car-engined Sportscars from their series.

So you have eligibility issues for some cars, and fear of another standout car which in theory has a Bowe/Veskanda like presence over the concept.

Thanks Falcadore for this - it is quite interesting to know, although doesn't really surprise me...It is always going to be a problem with a relatively open formula such as this, and with people with vastly different budgets...which, I guess could be a reason why (at least initially) a single make formula could give stability...not that i am really a fan of such a solution

And I do hear the arguments about competitors not wanting to go interstate to race...a problem to the success of a Series like this, for sure

[PVDA]

Originally Posted by Falcadore

A twenty year old carburetted engine? That was never going to happen. The Buick V6 engine was picked before Holden officially came on board.

A more powerful engine than a four was needed so what were the options, the Holden grey motor? The Ford 250 crossflow? The varying V8s? Chrysler Hemi??? All these engines were 20 year old motors. This was the first new over four cylinder engine to see Australia since the 1960s. The engine selected itself, there was never another viable option.

But the basic "Holden" V6 Buick engine also was more than 20 years old when they picked it as the new Commodore engine.

I'm pretty sure the 5 litre V8 had fuel injection by then as well.