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Old 30 Oct 2001, 05:41 (Ref:167257)   #1
Joe Fan
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CART driver Christian Fittipaldi to race in Busch Grand National series

http://www.speedvision.com/pub/artic...R/011029a.html

Hey, I think this is a good career move for him and it is something that is also good for the series--by adding a little diversity. Stock car racing is pretty popular in Brazil and is probably more popular in there than any other country. I wish him the best of luck.
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Old 1 Nov 2001, 00:32 (Ref:168177)   #2
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Has never driven a stock car, and will find out, quite rapidly, that this is a serious racing series, not like the carty-boys like to think, some form of retirement series. They have a history of not respecting NASCAR teams, drivers, fans, the series itself. Think they can just waltz into NASCAR and be handed the wins. News flash, what you've done in your roller-skate series don't mean squat in stock cars. Leave you arrogant carty-boy attitude in your series when you come to our turf! Prediction, will not finish race, will find the wall either with or without help, or if running at the end, will be laps down!
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Old 1 Nov 2001, 01:19 (Ref:168192)   #3
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marcus has a real shot at the podium!marcus has a real shot at the podium!marcus has a real shot at the podium!marcus has a real shot at the podium!
good to see you are being positive there Lee

anyway I am looking forward to seeing this...and I agree it is not going to be easy for him at all...really he hasnt had much luck in CART and Im not quite sure why he is going to try Nascar..and im sure the Busch boys are ready to welcome him aboard once he is on the track.

expect a few intenional bumps i would say ...I wish him well and just hope my cable carrier shows this one..but I doubt he could be up there with the top guys ...


it just may start something with CART being in turmoil at the moment ..kenny brack may get a ride or two as he is always talking about it after joining ganassi..so maybe Kenny and Christian are looking for a long term thing...who knows ?
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Old 1 Nov 2001, 04:02 (Ref:168213)   #4
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I'm looking forward to it.

I am excited to see how he does in the transition.
I don't think he will wimp out---he'll give it a good try.
As for attitude?- Well the NASCAR $$$$'s will convince him to be cooperative more than not.
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Old 7 Nov 2001, 16:22 (Ref:171481)   #5
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There is quite bit of competition for this race because for some reason, this race had one of the larger purses ($1.12 million) in the BGN series last year. Only the Daytona, Las Vegas and California BGN races had a larger purse last year.

I wouldn't be surprised if we see a CART or IRL driver try to make this race every year since it is a big payout race after CART and IRL's seasons are over. The competition is tough but nowhere near Winston Cup so I am sure a few open wheelers wouldn't mind cherry picking this one and getting some exposure for Winston Cup.

If he makes the field, don't be surprised if he gets spun for this reason. Teams are fighting for points and they are going to play CARTY-boy "closed the door" games going into the corners. Scott Pruett found this out the hard way last year.
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Old 8 Nov 2001, 03:22 (Ref:171770)   #6
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carty-boy, "close the door", hey that sounds like a fun game, can I play?

In reality, I think the only way he'll get punted is if he gets in the way, which could very well happen, seems carty-boys are always rolling road blocks when attempting NASCAR races! As you said, these guys are racing for a higher place in the year end standing (read that more money). Even though the championship has already been decided, there is quite a bit of money still up for grabs for 2nd place on back.
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Old 8 Nov 2001, 13:09 (Ref:171873)   #7
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marcus has a real shot at the podium!marcus has a real shot at the podium!marcus has a real shot at the podium!marcus has a real shot at the podium!
carty boy..I like it


One thing I have just thought off and i wished I hadnt now , is that Christian has had a heck of alot of head injuries during his career from a broken neck in F1 to sevral bad consussions in CART.

not wanting to put a dampener or any questions over NASCARS safety but there is a heck of alot of head injuries involved that i have seen and I just hope that he takes care and plays by the rules and has a safe weekend.
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Old 8 Nov 2001, 14:54 (Ref:171914)   #8
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carty-boy, "close the door", hey that sounds like a fun game, can I play?
Sure, we may even let you be the doorman but I think we will have to get that ok'd with Bella and KC first.
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Old 8 Nov 2001, 16:06 (Ref:171965)   #9
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I don't expect Christian Fititpaldi to be any real competition in Busch, he hasn't been that good in CART. I repsect him for wanting to go and try the series out, but I don't expect much against the much more experienced guys driving for much better teams.

I think if the shoe were on the other foot the NASCAR guys would do just as bad or worse if shoehorned into a Reynard or Lola. Most of the CART guys have never raced a car over 2000 pounds where contact is encouraged instead of avoided.

A lot of people love to point out how the open wheel guys don't do well in IROC. Well, they are doing 100% better in an open wheel car because only one of the stock drivers has even attempted it. The IROC series is a propaganda exercise to show that NASCAR drivers are better racers, when it only shows that they are better stock car drivers. These guys are the best stock car drivers in the world, but that doesn't make them the best racers in the world. No one can say who the best are because there is no way to adequately measure who that is. The rest is just opinion.
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Old 8 Nov 2001, 16:37 (Ref:171982)   #10
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The IROC series is a propaganda exercise to show that NASCAR drivers are better racers, when it only shows that they are better stock car drivers.
Wrong! Al Unser Jr. said that the IROC cars give the stock car drivers no advantage. It is pure and simple, the talent in CART and the IRL today is inferior to that in NASCAR. Open wheelers used to win all the time but it is now big news if they ever do. I believe that computers,on-board telemetry, and significant downforce provided by wings have reduced the skill required to drive open wheel cars of today. This is the real reason why the open wheel talent is generally inferior to that of NASCAR in IROC and why most of the top drivers do not compete in it, because it will expose the truth of their perceived talent. Tony Stewart does real well in the series but he came from a background of driving open wheel cars without wings and all the driver aids--sprints cars!

My feeling is that if you can't drive a "real car" competively, then you be better off sticking to computer cars or PC-controlled racing of F1.

Last edited by Joe Fan; 8 Nov 2001 at 16:41.
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Old 8 Nov 2001, 17:03 (Ref:172000)   #11
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Thank you KC, you have finally provided exactly what I wanted to hear, and have proved a point that I have been trying to get across for a good deal of time now. He has not ever driven a car, weighing more that 2000 lbs in competition, has no experience,expecially when driving against drivers that race these cars for a living! A driver, of any type racing, whatever form it might be, may be the most talented driver on the face of the earth, but if he is in a type of car that is ratically different from what he usually drives, and he has zero experience in it, he is not going to go much of anywhere, all the talent in the world will get him nowhere! The problem I have with open-wheel fans, especially the cart-types, though maybe not the ones here, as this is a far more civil forum than most, is the "in you face" attitude that they constantly throw at us NASCAR fan, about how NASCAR drivers cannot drive, are not real racers, etc. The constant bleeting about if this or that cart driver ever raced stock car, they would easily defeat the NASCAR regulars, would show the NASCAR drivers how it's done, etc! For them to continually say that is nothing but pure arrogance, and when their drivers fall flat on their faces, in NASCAR races, that is why I get such a charge out of it, I just love seeing the arrogant ones having to make excuses, eat their words, scuttle off with their tails tucked betewwn their legs, and whine like the bunch crybabies that they are! Sorry, that's the way it is. The NASCAR drivers are the best stock car drivers in the world, and noone, regardless of how talented he might be, in another form of racing, especially in one runing cars that are as different as night is from day, is just going to waltz in and sweep the regulars aside! As to what you say about the IROC races being a propaganda tool to make NASCAR drivers appear to be the greatest dsrivers on the face of the earth, I could not disagree with you more. The IROC is not a propaganda tool for anything. It is just a pathetic, canned, made for TV joke. That is all it has ever been, since it's very inception! It has not ever, is not now, and will not ever be anything more that that. It has not ever proven anything. It is even a pathetically poor support series for NASCAR. Basically, it just sucks, and should be done away with!
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Old 8 Nov 2001, 17:24 (Ref:172011)   #12
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Hey Lee, tell us how you really feel about IROC!

The point about crossover drivers is well taken. (It can work both ways too.) Think of the open wheel drivers who have come to Nascar recently (Gordon, Stewart, Blaney, etc.) and none of them were an overnight success (Gordon was close, but then he is an exception). All of them had to adapt to different cars and driving styles, etc. What sets them apart is how quickly and how successfully they can adapt, eg. J Gordon, Stewart vs Pruett, R Gordon. What should we say about Mario Andretti and his buddies? Were there more similarities between stock cars and indy cars back then, or were they just exceptional talents?
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Old 8 Nov 2001, 18:05 (Ref:172024)   #13
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The flaw in this type of argument comes from this. Scott Pruett has won in sportscars, Trans Am, and in CART. There is no doubt that he is a good racing driver. His foray into NASCAR did not do so well, but he was not driving for Yates, Hendricks or Roush either. He was driving for a fledgling team with zero experience. A team like that needs an experienced hand at the wheel not a guy who is learning as well. When you he is pointed out and said that he is not a good racer only his WC career is being used as a basis. How many Wc drivers can say they have won in CART, won leMans, won at the Daytona 24? Very few if any. However, I still think they are all good racers.

Be carefull when you start generalizing one type of fan or another, you risk being in the same group. You characterize CART Fan as arrogant, when from this side NASCAR Fan is the same.

As far as Al Unser jr. goes, he was a major proponent of the IROC and supports it whole heartedly today. His judgement is biased on this.
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Old 8 Nov 2001, 18:21 (Ref:172028)   #14
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Emfa,

Yes, the cars of those days were quit a bit more similar, with regards to weight, no power steering, narrow tires, etc. I'm talking about the old Indianapolis roadsters, not these super-lite, computer controlled, driver enhanced roller-skates that they drive now, as Joe Fan so apply pointed out. Also, in those days, USAC had a stock car division, A.J. Foyt competed in it frequently, and was already use to driving stock cars before he ever attemped driving in his first NASCAR race. As for Andretti, this isn't going to sit well with some here, but, IMO, Mario Andretti was, and is extreamly overrated, as a driver. I don't care how many Indianapolis 500s he won, which was only 1, or how many F-1 championships he won, 1 also, he was, and continues to be one of the biggest whiners in existance! His much ballyhooed 1967 Daytona 500 win, that the cart-types like to continously throw up in everybodies face, was a victory that was handed to him, he backed into it! First off, Andretti was not a cart driver back then, he was a USAC driver! cart was not even in existance at that time, and to date, there has not ever been a cart driver to win a NASCAR race, regardless of what the cart-types might try to tell you! Andretti whined the entire time, during Speedweeks of 1967, even in victory lane, he was whining! "Ford didn't want me to win this race, nobody wanted me to win it" He's as full of kaka as a Christmas turkey! Ford was locked in a knock down drag out fight with Chrysler at that time! They didn't give a rat's rear end who was driving the car, as long as it was a blue oval, and not a Mopar product that won the race! FOR CRYING OUT LOUD, they put him in a Holman and Moody Ford, for Christ sake, that was the TOP Ford team of the day, and one of the very best rides on the circuit, (similar to a Yates, Childress, or Hendricks car of today) yeah Mario, Ford really didn't want you to win did they? He couldn't even set the car up, almost didn't qualify for the race. Ford had to have Dick Hutcherson set the car up, and practice it for him. He was handed the win, because in the late stages of the race, Fred Lorenzen was leading, by a fairly large margin, but had to pit for fuel, his pit crew had mis-caculated his fuel. Back on the track, Lorenzen closed in on Andretti, but didn't have enough laps left to catch, and pass him. Most of the top names were out of the race, engines were not as reliable back then, as they are today. So the "great" Andretti was HANDED the 67 Daytona 500 win. To further show that this Daytona 500 win was a fluke, Andretti entered the 1967 Atlanta 500, driving for the same Holman and Moody team, a team which dominated the Atlanta 500, with three straight wins in this race! All week long, Andretti bragged about how he was the greatest driver that had ever sat in a stock car, how he had dominated and won the Daytona 500, and how he was going to do the same in the Atlanta 500, we got sick of reading about the **** he was saying, and sick of hearing his mouth on the radio, here in Atlanta! Again, he barely qualified, didn't have Hutcherson to help him this time, and was lapped repetedly during the race! The "greatest driver that ever sat in a stock car" wasn't running his mouth too much after the race, and quickly left town! Never drove another NASCAR race, gee, I wonder why? Guess he kinda let his alligator mouth overload his hummingbird a$$! Back to the original point, the roadsters were much more like stock cars in the way they drove, and their weight, and USAC had a stock car division, which helped Foyt, and others like him prepair for racing in NASCAR.
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Old 8 Nov 2001, 18:44 (Ref:172033)   #15
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What should we say about Mario Andretti and his buddies? Were there more similarities between stock cars and indy cars back then, or were they just exceptional talents?
Yes, there were more similarities back then between the cars and yes, the drivers back then were exceptional too. Andretti, Foyt, Pearson, etc. could jump into anything and be competitive. David Pearson didn't drive open wheel cars but he did race in Trans-Am a few times when it had real talent and he won there. He also outperformed two F1 World Driver Champions, A.J. Foyt and quite a few other greats driving Porsche Carreras in IROC in 1974, and every event was on a road course that year!

Today's open wheel cars have three-four times more downforce than a stock car and this downforce essentially sucks the car to the ground. It is a wide known fact that these cars could conceivably drive upside down on the ceiling of a tunnel if the fuel could be fed properly due to gravity and if they could be given time to build up the speed to enable the downforce. This is why I am a big stock car, sprint car, rally car and some degree sports car fan, because real driving has been preserved. I still respect some of the open wheel drivers but it is more for bravery and niche racing talent than raw driving talent.
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Old 8 Nov 2001, 18:47 (Ref:172037)   #16
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Phew! Quite an insight into some history there Lee. Thanks. I was one of those people who had only heard "Wow! Mario Andretti won Daytona", not how.
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...
Back to the original point, the roadsters were much more like stock cars in the way they drove, and their weight, and USAC had a stock car division, which helped Foyt, and others like him prepair for racing in NASCAR.
I suspected as much. So, the moral is; be careful if someone tries to argue that 'Indycar' drivers have been successful in Nascar.

Did someone say that Scott Pruett is not a good driver? Yikes! If it was me, I'm afraid that I may have been misunderstood. (Sorry) When I mentioned his name I was only trying to say that he appeared to have a hard time adapting to Nascar. On reflection, it was probably more of a case - as KC pointed out - of being with a fledgling team. If he could have stuck it out, or gone to a more successful team, maybe he would have seen more success. But isn't that the way that it is with everybody?!?
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Old 8 Nov 2001, 18:50 (Ref:172038)   #17
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Except for this point KC, I have not ever walked up to cart fans, or told them on the internet that their drivers were not real race car drivers, have not ever told them the their drivers could not hold a candle to NASCAR drivers. I have not ever called them stupid, ignorate, dumb, idiots, because they prefer a different type of racing that I prefer! I have not ever insulted them, about where they are from, their education level, said anything about their family members, sleeping with relatives, etc. Have not ever verbly or physically assalted them because they perfer a different brand of racing. You see, many cart-types are guilty of this, don't believe me, don't take my word for it, pay a visit the 7thgear, or autoracing1, and you can see it with you own eyes! I'm not saying all stock car fans are perfect, because they certianlly are not, but they show nowhere near the arrogance that the cart-types do, from my experience!

As for Pruett, who BTW is the only cart driver that I liked, because he didn't have the arrogant attitude that the other ones I've seen have, and who I don't believe was treated right, either last year, or this year, basically thrown to the wolfs last year, and then just dropped from the ride, in a very unprofessional manner, by the owner of that team, Cal Wells, Pruett said he was a good friend, hey with friends like that, who needs enemies? He stated, "I thought with all of their experience that I had from other forms of racing, I would not have a difficult time of transitioning into stock cars. I thought there would be allot of crossover, and transfer from the experience I had to these cars, but there was little, if any crossover at all. This is comppletely different, from anything I've ever done. Everything that I thought would work either didn't, work at all, or worked exactly the opposite of what I thought it would!" I wish Pruett had first ran in the Busch Series for a year or two, then tried Cup, and I still hope he goes back, gets a year or two of Busch under his belt, and then trys Cup again. I like the guy, and hope he gets this chance!

As for WC drivers trying to go to other forms of racing, Why should they? Their at the top of American motorsports! They are household names, they have tremendous exposure, both at the track, and on TV. To go anywhere else would be a step down for them, to series that are far less popular, have less exposure, both in track attendence, and on television. When your own top, you don't take a step down!
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Old 8 Nov 2001, 19:03 (Ref:172048)   #18
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Scott Pruett was an excellent driver in Trans-Am but don't think that the competition in the series was stiff enough to be a good indicator on how he would do in Winston Cup. Also racing low downforce cars on road courses doesn't put the cars on the edge aerodynamically because the speeds are lower.

Last edited by Joe Fan; 8 Nov 2001 at 19:04.
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Old 8 Nov 2001, 19:21 (Ref:172060)   #19
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I agree with you that their are lots of ignorant CART fans, F1 fans and other fans who deride the NASCAR drivers and fans. But I personally know 10 NASCAR fans in my office of 20 who think the same about every other form of racing besides NASCAR. It works both ways. You are not the only persecuted fan out there. If you let an ******* get to you then they will win. I watch and like what I want to watch and like. I don't need the mass media or other fans to tell me what is good, who is the best and what I should watch.

I only used Scott Pruett because he has raced in mutliple disciplines. Trans Am has nothing in common with NASCAR as the cars are radically different. If Pruett had joined Yates or Childress, would he have been relegated as quickly. No. The cars and teams are far too good. Cal Wells effort doesn't make a pimple on a either of these team's ass. So don't look at Pruett's time in NASCAR and then use it to broadbrush paint every open wheel driver as unable to compete.

Just as I think a driver like Gil deFerran could be competitive in a frontline WC car, I think that Jeff Gordon would be as competitive if racing for Penske or Ganassi in CART. These guys are good. They are fast enough to beat their peers, smart enough to know when to hang back and when to sprint, and experienced enough to know what it takes to win. But neither of these guys are worth a fiddler's damn alone, without their world class team support. I repsect them all. Sometimes they all do stupid **** that earns my wrath but in the end they are all good and have earned my repsect (well, all but Shigeaki Hattori).
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Old 8 Nov 2001, 19:34 (Ref:172065)   #20
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KC, at the same time, Ricky Craven won this year in the Cal Wells #32 Tide Ride that Scott had problems getting in the field. Kenny Irwin showed some potential on ocassion in the Robert Yates #28 Texaco car but look at what Rudd had done in it the last two years. If Irwin would have done half as good as Ricky had done he would have been retained by Robert Yates.
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Old 8 Nov 2001, 20:09 (Ref:172085)   #21
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KC,

Well, one thing you can certianly say, this hasn't been a boring thread.

I won't argure with you that there are NASCAR fans that can be a$$holes, just like the 10 that you mentioned, at your workplace. I said that all NASCAR fans weren't perfect. I wonder if, however, the reason they are like that is not more of a backlash toward the fans of other forms of racing. My extream dislike toward open-wheel, especially cart, racing, and it's fans is exactly that, a backlash. I'm not the type that will generally bother anybody, in fact, I usually try to avoid controversy, live and let live. I'm kind of like most wild animals, leave me alone, and I'll go my on way, but like those same wild animals, back me into a corner, and stand by, you've got the fight of you life on your hands. Yes, it works both ways, but I'd be curious, have you ever thought to ask them, during the course of a conversasion, why they feel such dislike toward other forms of racing, outside of NASCAR? You might get some intresting answers. I don't let the mass media, or other fans dictate what I watch, like, or whatever. I know what I like, and I watch what I like. As far as persecution, no, I'm not the only one. I don't let other series fans bother me, they haven't won, by far, basically they lost, here's why. Those that were dumb enough to threaten physically violance paid the price for their mistakes, as it usually isn't wise to physically challegen a member of the Marine Corps in a hand to hand contest. Verbal challegen, I can give out just as good as I have to take, can pretty much hold my own. Here is where they really lost though, I hope that they remember that their words, attitudes, and/or actions influnce the feelings toward them, and their series, They have made enemies, when they could have made allies. They should, have, all along, been trying to make friends, to get others to attend their events, as the old saying goes, "you will attract far more flys with honey, than you will with vinagar." Instead, they choose to turn me, and quite a few others against them, and not only will I not attend their events, I'll help shut their series down, by refusing to attend and will also encourage friends, and associates to do the same. As they say, word of mouth is the most effective type of advertisment. The publicity and feelings, that they fostered were negative, they sowed it, now they are reaping it. They old saying is so true, "if you can't say something nice about somebody, then don't say nothing!" They have had, and still have nothing good to say about NASCAR, or about we NASCAR fans, so they lost!

Yes, your right, drivers sometimes do, and say some pretty stupid things. But, in the end, their human, just like everybody else, and sometimes, saying and doing stupid things is far too human.
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Old 8 Nov 2001, 20:19 (Ref:172091)   #22
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Joe Fan,

The reason, from all the scuttlebutt going around, that Iwrin lost the Yates ride was, sadly, that he got to where he was partying too much, and it was taking away from his efforts at driving. The story goes, that Yates warned him several times, that if he didn't conerntrate more on his driving, and less on the nightlife scene, that he would loose the ride, and from what I understand, sadly for him, Irwin choose not to listen. Therefore, Yates let him go. This isn't the first time that it happend either. I remember a up and coming young driver back in the 60s, that was earmarked for stardom, name was Sam McQuagg. He, much like Iwrin, had the brass ring in his hand, but partying got the best of him, and caused the loss of a top ride, and in his case, his career, as a driver as well. As they say, "the more things change, the more they stay the same."
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Old 8 Nov 2001, 21:40 (Ref:172172)   #23
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KC should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridKC should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
I can understand your point of view, but I think your wrath is misplaced. I don't hate NASCAR because some of the fans are *******s, I just don't like the ******* fans. Its not NASCAR's fault. When was the last time you heard NASCAR or CART run an ad saying watch our program instead of theirs, theirs is ****. Never. Don't blame CART just because you know some *******s. Hell they probably like other things you don't like too, like chitlins or tripe .

I love being a race fan. I will stand hours in the burning sun to catch a glimpse of guys racing. Millions of people would never do that but they will sit and watch golf or bowling on TV because they love it. To each his own.
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Old 8 Nov 2001, 22:12 (Ref:172198)   #24
Lee
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Lee should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
KC,

Well, as you say, to each his own. Sorry, but I can't call my wrath misplaced, and it isn't going to change, it goes back too far (accutally before the formation of cart, but dealing with basically the same arrogant crowd) and is too deep. Perhaps you should tell the younger cart fans that if they don't learn to respect others, they will create more Lee's, which certianly won't bode well for their series, that is, if they still have a series, after the end of next year! See, the damage very well might have already been done! This being said, I'm glad that you don't hate NASCAR, or NASCAR fans. I will treat anybody, even a cart fan, with respect, regardless of what they might be, until/unless they are a$$holes and act like that toward me, then I will completely wash my hands of them. It's just that it is an extreamly rare, almost non-existant occurance that I have ever met a cart fan that wasn't. The ones that I've met, through the internet, you included, (none ever in person) that have not acted this way toward me, can be counted on 1, or 2 hands. It's unfortunate, but that's the way it is.

BTW, grew up on a farm, can't say as I ever ate tripe, but have eaten chitlins on many occasions.

Also, I have neen known to play a round or two of golf, and roll a ball down the lanes on a few occasions, as well as watch both on the tube. Have a good evening.

Last edited by Lee; 8 Nov 2001 at 22:33.
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Old 8 Nov 2001, 23:53 (Ref:172276)   #25
Raoul Duke
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Originally posted by Lee
Has never driven a stock car, and will find out, quite rapidly, that this is a serious racing series, not like the carty-boys like to think, some form of retirement series. They have a history of not respecting NASCAR teams, drivers, fans, the series itself. Think they can just waltz into NASCAR and be handed the wins. News flash, what you've done in your roller-skate series don't mean squat in stock cars. Leave you arrogant carty-boy attitude in your series when you come to our turf! Prediction, will not finish race, will find the wall either with or without help, or if running at the end, will be laps down!
Lee, I'm bewildered you would post such a comment. I can only conclude that you really don't know a lot about Cart racing if that's what you think. It's one of the most competive, and diverse racing series in the world, with drivers coming from all of areas of the globe. Some of them even go on to have successful careers in F1(Montoya). It demands the ability to be just as good on road circuits as on ovals. If there have been, in the past, drivers who have had a hard time getting acclimatized in Nascar, it's simply because it's a whole different ball game from open wheelers. Not because open wheel drivers lack the talent to suceed.
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