Restart procedure after Safety Car period.

[Mike Bell]

OK, not only in histerics, but not long ago there were two distinct procedures adopted by different organisers.

The first dictated that when the SC lights went off and it pulled off the circuit, green flags would be shown at all Marshals post, competitors could immediately start racing, and if possible, overtake, wherever they were on the track at the time.

The alternative dictated that green flags would be shown at all Marshals posts, as above, BUT cars had to hold position, and not overtake, until passing the start line.

It seems now that most historic organisers have settled on the latter approach, but why? First- It can be very unfair, here’s an example from Dijon recently. The slowest car in the race can only manage 138kph on the straights, the next slowest just over 160kph, your car 210-230kph or higher. You’re behind, and have just passed the start line when green flags are waved. So you have almost a lap following before you can overtake a car that laps 20 seconds slower. Meanwhile, the cars you were chasing have disappeared..... I know that in a perfect world, all the competing cars would be line astern behind the SC, but in reality that is seldom the case. What happens on many occasions is that the odd individual ignores the rule, overtakes one or several cars, but is not penalised. Surely if everyone was allowed to overtake, that scenario would be eliminated?

At the race meeting in the above example, one competitor took it upon themselves to ask the CoC the reasons behind the ‘no overtaking until’ rule, but he wasn’t able to give one!

Anyone have an answer as to why the procedure was adopted?

[Gerard C]

Assuming you're talking about a single SC procedure, not several SC's, you mean you're not allowed to take over after the start/finish line when green flags are waved and the SC is parked? I'm surprised because this case is clearly explained during the briefing. My understanding is that you can overtake.
Why this procedure is adopted, can't answer.

[Colin McKay]

Are you sure you'e got that right Mike? In the example you gave, cars behind you that cross the line after the green flags go out would be allowed to overtake you, but you can't retaliate. Or am I missing something?

[one-two]

Mike, I think the scenario you describe can only happen if, for some reason, the field is very spread out. If I understand it, the safety car is coming in when you are still the best part of a lap behind it? The solution is surely a tighter formation behind the safety car - maybe it needs to go slower or be out for longer to achieve that

[grantp]

Last weekend I observed a car at the rear of the field (but for one who was recovering from a spin or something) circulating at about the same speed as the safety car and seemingly keeping the track safe rather than attempting to catch the end of the snake.

I decided that the X plate indicate bother an inexperienced and not up to speed driver and perhaps an unfamiliarity with the way things were meant to work and what was acceptable.

However when the SC period ended his speed remained the same and I realised it was about the same as had been achieved before the SC. So he may well have been trying to catch up but was unable to do so within his comfort zone.

Not good news for the chap behind him. They must have been about 3/4 of a lap behind.

There has to be a way of making allowances for this sort of situation and to cover Mike's concerns as well. (Assuming that the managed speed limit solution (Code 60?) does not provide the solution which it may not for many reasons.)

[one-two]

I think that's the point - the SC effectively has to go at a speed that everyone can exceed or the grid won't close up behind it. I can see that could be tricky in situations with big speed differentials

[grantp]

Originally Posted by one-two

I think that's the point - the SC effectively has to go at a speed that everyone can exceed or the grid won't close up behind it. I can see that could be tricky in situations with big speed differentials

Assuming they know they are expected to close up and that it is OK to try to do so.

Huge compromises on all aspects (not the least for the marshals) no matter what one does.

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by Colin McKay

Are you sure you'e got that right Mike? In the example you gave, cars behind you that cross the line after the green flags go out would be allowed to overtake you, but you can't retaliate. Or am I missing something?

Correct Colin, That could happen.

Originally Posted by one-two

Mike, I think the scenario you describe can only happen if, for some reason, the field is very spread out. If I understand it, the safety car is coming in when you are still the best part of a lap behind it? The solution is surely a tighter formation behind the safety car - maybe it needs to go slower or be out for longer to achieve that

Often as not, the field will be spread out, however hard race control try to control it, but no-one wants the SC to be out any longer than absolutely necessary. For example, a car stops in a dangerous spot with a mechanical issue. The SC is deployed, but the car fires up again and continues. You can't leave the SC out for several laps with a 60 car field until there is a train. For more than one reason, some cars / drivers do not catch up the train. We had a situation couple of years back where the whole of the pitwall, including marshals, were frantically trying to get one driver to go quicker, as the SC was catching them up.....

Originally Posted by one-two

I think that's the point - the SC effectively has to go at a speed that everyone can exceed or the grid won't close up behind it. I can see that could be tricky in situations with big speed differentials

The issue is more likely in a grid where there are big lap time differences. In a one make grid it shouldn't be such a problem.

Originally Posted by GORDON STREETER

I know how I feel, after a SC period at Spa I was held up behind a car that was actually lapping 30 seconds slower than the safety car and the race was completely "sodded up" as I lost the guys that I was racing with. I would have though that in a case like this the marshals should have been instructed to wave us by ?

Yes. Despite the regulation in my last post stating overtaking 'strictly prohibited', if a car is lapping slowly due to a problem, it is normally acceptable for the driver to wave other cars past, but the marshals are not really in a position to make that decision?


I'm still looking for any reason why the regulation was adopted, rether than the alternative of racing to start as soon as green flags are waved!

[MGDavid]

too many SCs in this country, period. Far prefer FCY or Code 60.

[Gerard C]

What is clear is that for one question we have several interpretations!
I'm with MG David FCY is a good thing as seen at Le Mans last week. We need well trained marshals and its a must to respect them. I've been working on that a long while ago, marshaling is not a piece of cake.

[GORDON STREETER]

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

Yes. Despite the regulation in my last post stating overtaking 'strictly prohibited', if a car is lapping slowly due to a problem, it is normally acceptable for the driver to wave other cars past, but the marshals are not really in a position to make that decision?


:

In the case I was referring to, the driver of the car was lapping at his "normal" race speed !

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by Gerard C

May be you just experienced a lack of mutual understanding at Dijon? On the other french tracks you're allowed to drive with two wheels on the herbs. Explained during the briefing. Do it twice in a row at Dijon and you'll be warned for track limits.

Nothing to do with Dijon, Gerard. Just using a recent race there as one example!

Originally Posted by Gerard C

I know I'm thick, but my understanding is that you're allowed to race again when the green flags are waved after crossing the start/finish line. And no, this doesn't answer you question. And yes, your unanswered question brings others!

You're not thick, Gerard, but maybe misunderstanding my point. In the recent past, one or some organisers would allow you to overtake before crossing the start line, as soon as the green flags were shown around the circuit. What was wrong with that system, which has resulted in what many perceive to be a less satisfactory situation?

Originally Posted by GORDON STREETER

In the case I was referring to, the driver of the car was lapping at his "normal" race speed !

Which is the problem with races that have a wide disparity in car (and driver) performance. So why not allow overtaking as soon as green flags are shown?

[GORDON STREETER]

I know how I feel, after a SC period at Spa I was held up behind a car that was actually lapping 30 seconds slower than the safety car and the race was completely "sodded up" as I lost the guys that I was racing with. I would have though that in a case like this the marshals should have been instructed to wave us by ?

[terence]

Rather a lot depends on the SC driver. The following field should be bunched up in the same positions they were before the deployment of the SC. Sometimes not so easy when the car at the back of the field is being way to slowly!!
One occasion at Snett we had this. Two laps to get track cleared and another spent trying to get the last car somewhere near the following field. Radioed in saying it was pointless. So lights out and come in. 😂😂

[midgetman]

In karting we use the Battenburg flag (yellow/black squares) so the field closes up behind the leader. I saw it used on a car race track just the once, and it was a total disaster with random groups of cars driving at random speeds. Totally defeated the point.

As you say, if only there were a central point of reference with it all written down so we could refer to it online. You could print it in a book if you wanted, too. I'm not sure some clerks are totally au fait with the rule book either and apply their own "understanding".

Here's a thought. Motorsport UK are very active on social media these days, why couldn't they take one rule or procedure each week and highlight what to do and why you do it? Start with the safety car, of course! I always find the act of explaining something makes you ask questions of yourself.

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[MartinSmith]

I was gonna go into a long speal with this.... but...

Mike, has your question been answered?

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by ClaireSmith

I was gonna go into a long speal with this.... but...

Mike, has your question been answered?

I did wonder if you would post, Claire, but appreciate there have been other things on your mind.

As far as racing under MSUK regs are concerned, it seem black and white- No overtaking until passing the start line. The FIA ISC regulation also suggests the same, but is not worded quite so exactly.

Interestingly, the Race Director at the meeting referred to at the beginning reckoned it’s down to him whether to allow or not. Therefore the organiser is now getting a petition signed by many regular competitors to have the rule changed and allow overtaking as soon as green flags are waved. We’ll see what happens......

[MartinSmith]

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

I did wonder if you would post, Claire, but appreciate there have been other things on your mind.

As far as racing under MSUK regs are concerned, it seem black and white- No overtaking until passing the start line. The FIA ISC regulation also suggests the same, but is not worded quite so exactly.

Interestingly, the Race Director at the meeting referred to at the beginning reckoned it’s down to him whether to allow or not. Therefore the organiser is now getting a petition signed by many regular competitors to have the rule changed and allow overtaking as soon as green flags are waved. We’ll see what happens......

Have you checked the Series regs Mike? These supersede the general regs as has probably been pointed out and where there is "conflict" as such, providing the regs have been approved by the governing body in question, then they will take preference not the general rules

Also, the circuit licence can effect the way deployment is carried out

[Mike Bell]

Thanks Claire. The Series Regs do indeed include the rule. The comprehensive briefing notes always given out (and read by me, at least ) also repeat the ISC App H wording.

As I said couple of posts ago, it will be interesting to see if the competitors are listened to....

[MartinSmith]

Originally Posted by midgetman

......... I'm not sure some clerks are totally au fait with the rule book either and apply their own "understanding".

Here's a thought. Motorsport UK are very active on social media these days, why couldn't they take one rule or procedure each week and highlight what to do and why you do it? Start with the safety car, of course! I always find the act of explaining something makes you ask questions of yourself.

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Why have you got to be spoon fed? Why has someone got to explain it several times to you, .. . Sorry I am not having a go at you in particular Max you know that but the above statement ... is typical of a competitor who actually "cannot be arsed" (excuse my french)

The deployment of a safety car is explained several times

1 its explained in the blue book (page 290/291)
2 Its online (go to MotorsportUk and do a search) ... the Blue book is ONLINE peeps
3 For the event in question, it will be in the supplementary regs which as a competitor you should read
4 it will be explained at the drivers briefing which is mandatory to attend and thats when you think (as a competitor) "I've heard it all before" ... but you see, for that particular event you haven't, there maybe changes to the track/event/regs that have happened since you were last there or since you last raced with the organiser ..... THATS why we like you to attend and its there that the magic really happens... for there you can INTERACT with the "powers that be" by putting your hand up when a clerk like me is standing there not for their own benefit and say "Claire, what you have just described regarding the safety car is different slightly to the general regulations in the blue book, can you tell me why" and I will then list things like

1 The track License here requires that we do Blah Blah
2 The Series/Championship rules require this because blah blah
3 Past experience has found that.... blah blah
4 Given the technology here we will be using smoke signals!


and, if you have an issue with that still, you could

1 take it up with the stewards of the event including the MotorsportUk steward
2 lodge a complaint to MotorsportUK
3 Not attend

As for clerks not knowing, they should do, we do actually have a form of CPD which requires attendance, but also, just like you can, we are informed of rule changes AS THEY HAPPEN by the Motorsport UK (register for updates and you will be amazed!!!)

Now, one more spoon for the king!!!

[midgetman]

Spoon feeding? There are many intelligent people who are daunted by the BB. Why not publish it in a form that's accessible to all?

[MartinSmith]

Originally Posted by midgetman

Spoon feeding? There are many intelligent people who are daunted by the BB. Why not publish it in a form that's accessible to all?

There is a lot of information in it but t IS acessible to all. What bit cant you find and where cant you find it? its online, a word can be searched online... as well as that as a compeitor you get sent one every year it is not rocket science Max

[MGDavid]

Originally Posted by ClaireSmith

... as well as that as a competitor you get sent one every year it is not rocket science Max

er, not any more we don't !

I rang MSUK after my last licence renewal and was told I can buy a hard copy for IIRC £32. The cynic in me concluded the officials got fed up with competitors appearing in front of them at meetings holding a copy of said book and making certain officials feel daft (especially scrutineers).

The trouble with handling, reading and understanding online information is you cannot put fingers and thumbs in the various book references and cross-refer from one to the other, which is often necessary given the randomness and complexity of the layout of the BB.

[MartinSmith]

Originally Posted by MGDavid

er, not any more we don't !

I rang MSUK after my last licence renewal and was told I can buy a hard copy for IIRC £32. The cynic in me concluded the officials got fed up with competitors appearing in front of them at meetings holding a copy of said book and making certain officials feel daft (especially scrutineers).

The trouble with handling, reading and understanding online information is you cannot put fingers and thumbs in the various book references and cross-refer from one to the other, which is often necessary given the randomness and complexity of the layout of the BB.

David, I got one this year as a competitor, I got one as a clerk and then got three for the club! seriously, I have a spare (or two) if you want one!!! ha ha (actually there is a position of Club Secretary going... if ya fancy the position!) .. or go online to the PDF... and press PRINT

I stand by what I have said, even if you dont get a physical one anymore, theres the regs and the Supps PLUS the briefing... if you cant work out the Safety Car procedure from the briefing... you should not be racing.

[MGDavid]

eeeeee, you're lucky;
we had to eat gravel just to get a glimpse of a Blue Book...