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Old 19 Jun 2018, 22:38 (Ref:3831981)   #5801
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Originally Posted by carbsmith View Post
We've seen plenty of manufacturers race in ACO classes in the US and not at Le Mans. Acura and Mazda specifically at that.

Acura raced at Le Mans in LMP1 and LMP2. Just not every year.
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Old 19 Jun 2018, 23:59 (Ref:3831989)   #5802
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We've seen plenty of manufacturers race in ACO classes in the US and not at Le Mans. Acura and Mazda specifically at that.
How does this help? We already know that Mazda and Acura don't race at Le Mans due to cost of LMP1, not a lack of interest in winning Le Mans overall....

Like I asked before, if ACO said DPi can race at Le Mans in 2019 for the overall win, do you think Mazda and Acura would not show up with their DPIs?

When LMP1 was common category in ALMS and the ELMS, was there even a manufacturer who didn't go to Le Mans with the car?
Do you guys think that if the category was common and affordable, that Acura and Mazda would not go to Le Mans?
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Old 20 Jun 2018, 01:54 (Ref:3832002)   #5803
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They weren't in LMP1 (much cheaper as it was) most of said time. Acura even spent the money to build a complete LMP1 car that would have been basically useless at Le Mans anyways.

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When LMP1 was common category in ALMS and the ELMS, was there even a manufacturer who didn't go to Le Mans with the car?
Uh, Acura and Mazda.




BMW also elected not to defend their Le Mans win while continuing to race in ALMS in 2000, because as is typical for BMW the North American division had its own independent sports car racing budget. (also see: E46 M3 GTR, E92 M3 GT2 gen 1, Z4 GTE, M6 GTE)

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Do you guys think that if the category was common and affordable, that Acura and Mazda would not go to Le Mans?
I clearly do.

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Acura raced at Le Mans in LMP1 and LMP2. Just not every year.
Acura has never raced at Le Mans. The ARX-01 didn't run a single race outside of North America until Acura had pulled out of sports car racing and left HPD to sell unbadged cars to privateers. A few years later when they began putting them in Ligiers as well they finally started calling the engines Hondas instead of only HPD.
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Old 20 Jun 2018, 02:37 (Ref:3832006)   #5804
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How to make a common prototype class with the new P1 regulations...

IMSA can run the cars without hybrids.

Seriously, despite all the efforts on cost control, those hybrid system, and the associated mechanicals to make them drive the front wheels, are going be a VERY large part of the cost - drop them and the cost should drop considerably as well. It will still be a bit pricier than DPi, but if IMSA also keeps LMP2 for the lower-budget teams I'd bet it won't be that big of an issue.

You can bet any manufacturer who builds a car to these rules will be happy to provide such a version, as well.


Wow this is the best idea I've come across all day!! Drop the hybrid system for IMSA! This could seriously work. IMSA teams don't want or desire hybrids anyway. And the teams can simply run ballast (or not) in the empty hybrid space since the car will potentially be developed around a hybrid weight distribution.
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Old 20 Jun 2018, 04:15 (Ref:3832008)   #5805
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Acura has never raced at Le Mans. The ARX-01 didn't run a single race outside of North America until Acura had pulled out of sports car racing and left HPD to sell unbadged cars to privateers. A few years later when they began putting them in Ligiers as well they finally started calling the engines Hondas instead of only HPD.
You're splitting hairs. It was the same program the entire time, under HPD, they just dropped the Acura badge for a while. Even with the badge dropped, the privateers who bought cars got the same technical assistance from HPD as all the ALMS teams before them.
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Old 20 Jun 2018, 04:57 (Ref:3832012)   #5806
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Acura is not a thing outside the US. People just know the Honda brand as, well, Honda.
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Old 20 Jun 2018, 05:02 (Ref:3832013)   #5807
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If a car manufacturers wants to run a hybrid, why not use the same unit from the street car, like from the Prius or something?
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Old 20 Jun 2018, 06:36 (Ref:3832022)   #5808
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Someone taking a customer HPD chassis to Le Mans and then people saying "Acura raced at Le Mans" is like claiming Porsche raced the LMP2 at Le Mans. No, they didn't - they just didn't stop a customer doing it.

Mazda have had LMP1 based cars before that were legal at Le Mans with no modification and did not take the cars over. But now we're saying they would take them over if they could? Based on...?

Seems to me that this is pure hope from the fans. It sounds awesome, but I'm not sure the reality would match up to it.
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Old 20 Jun 2018, 08:06 (Ref:3832031)   #5809
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Isn't that because it was (and still is) never really Mazda but rather Mazda USA footing the bill?
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Old 20 Jun 2018, 09:56 (Ref:3832060)   #5810
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If a car manufacturers wants to run a hybrid, why not use the same unit from the street car, like from the Prius or something?
In a road car regenerative braking somwhere around 20-40 kW is enough in a race car you need at least 200 kW, not to mention the stress on the battery.

If you wan't cheap hybrid then just make a spec part, just like formula E in the first season, this was a cheap enough solution for that series, why wouldn't it work for a hybrid race car.
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Old 20 Jun 2018, 09:57 (Ref:3832062)   #5811
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If a car manufacturers wants to run a hybrid, why not use the same unit from the street car, like from the Prius or something?
Because it is a unit for made for a road car and road use and not for an LMP and racing use. Weight and power differences for starters.
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Old 20 Jun 2018, 09:58 (Ref:3832063)   #5812
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"Common Prototype Regs the “Guiding Principle” for Ford Commitment"

http://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/c...rd-commitment/

Ford signing up for the 2020 regs sounds less likely.
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Old 20 Jun 2018, 10:35 (Ref:3832066)   #5813
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"Common Prototype Regs the “Guiding Principle” for Ford Commitment"

http://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/c...rd-commitment/

Ford signing up for the 2020 regs sounds less likely.

At the same time, the chances that the ACO will genuinely attempt to work out common regs just went up.

If GM made a similar statement, you could bet money common prototype regs will happen, even if it takes an extra year to work out. The ACO WILL want that sweet Ford/GM rivalry at Le Mans.
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Old 20 Jun 2018, 11:17 (Ref:3832072)   #5814
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At the same time, the chances that the ACO will genuinely attempt to work out common regs just went up.

If GM made a similar statement, you could bet money common prototype regs will happen, even if it takes an extra year to work out. The ACO WILL want that sweet Ford/GM rivalry at Le Mans.
But GM hasn't even been part of the meetings, according to reports.
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Old 20 Jun 2018, 11:38 (Ref:3832079)   #5815
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Do GM even have any brands in Europe worth using at Le Mans? Chevrolet in Europe is just rebadged Daewoo stuff. They've sold Opel and Vauxhall, got rid of Saab. I'm not sure there's a brand in Europe that GM would use.
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Old 20 Jun 2018, 15:28 (Ref:3832127)   #5816
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I assume that they could try and market Cadillac, but Europe doesn't seem to be a core market, especially since GM sold off Vauxhall and Opel to PSA and I don't hear too much about Caddies in Europe.
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Old 20 Jun 2018, 15:47 (Ref:3832134)   #5817
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"Common Prototype Regs the “Guiding Principle” for Ford Commitment"

http://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/c...rd-commitment/

Ford signing up for the 2020 regs sounds less likely.
Ford is probably the one manufacturer where having a common set of regulations is a big deal — if it existed, they are easily the most likely to run full time in both the WEC and IMSA. It's hard to see the other manufacturers identified so far as possibly being interested in what the ACO/WEC are proposing as having season-long efforts in both series if a common prototype reg were adopted. WEC plus Daytona? Sure. WEC plus NAEC? Maybe. WEC plus the full IMSA season? Unlikely.

And that's the thing that a lot of people are missing here. IMSA plus Le Mans or WEC plus Daytona is nice and some manufacturers and teams would certainly take advantage of that under a common set of top-class.

But it's not enough. What both series really are looking for is full-season entries — cars that show up at Daytona in January but also at Mid-Ohio in May and Mosport in July (IMSA) or at Le Mans in July but also at Silverstone in August and Fuji in October (WEC). The big question, the question the ACO/WEC and IMSA are asking themselves, is how do these regulations help them fill the grid for run-of-the-mill races.

So it comes down to two things:

• Are there other manufacturers or teams besides Ford who see a common set of rules as an absolute requirement to enter and would then race full-time in both IMSA and the WEC?

• And are there manufacturers or teams for whom the ability to race at the other series' big race would be the tipping point to enter one series full time i.e. someone who said we'd race in the WEC but only if common rules existed so we could also do Daytona? (Or NAEC.) Or someone who said we'll come to IMSA but only if common rules also allow us to run Le Mans but who has no interest in the rest of the WEC season.
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Old 20 Jun 2018, 16:11 (Ref:3832141)   #5818
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ACO have solved the second problem by making sure only full season WEC entries get to run at Le Mans. If they don't get an invitation through other means.
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Old 20 Jun 2018, 16:44 (Ref:3832151)   #5819
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It comes to down a massive difference in priorities. ACO wants to be very forward thinking with technology and the environmental aspect. IMSA wants it dirt cheap, and balanced so there good racing, minimal development and no cost escalation.

It's very very hard to mix these priorities, especially the technology versus minimal development sets.
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Old 20 Jun 2018, 16:46 (Ref:3832152)   #5820
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LMP Future Regulations (was Le Mans EVO rules)

As was mentioned earlier, I really think a common set of the regulations, minus the hybrid systems for IMSA is a nice solution. The IMSA manufactures don't want hybrids. At the same time, Honda Japan and Toyota Japan don't have any incentive to help support the IMSA projects if the prototypes are not common on some level. The hybrid systems are a large part of the cost. Earlier we were trying to figure out how ACO could cut another 5-10 million out of the program cost specifically for the IMSA manufacturers and teams. This seems like a good compromise.

Acura could race IMSA, and rebadge as the Honda with the hybrid system for WEC if they wanted. This is how you can get a collaboration between Honda NA and Honda Global. Much easier to develop the car jointly when both entities have something to gain from it.

Lexus could race IMSA, and rebadge as the Toyota with the Hybrid system for WEC if they wanted. This is how you can get a collaboration between Lexus/TRD NA and Toyota Japan entities. Same concept. Both entities have something to gain from joint development of the car.

Ford could do both with no hybrid for IMSA. Ford don't really seem to have a problem with the 20 million potential programme cost, they just care that they can race in IMSA and WEC with the same car.

Didn't Audi have the R18s with and without the hybrid system a few years ago? It shows that a common vehicle can be developed around both powertrains.

Agree? Disagree?

Last edited by Articus; 20 Jun 2018 at 16:56.
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Old 20 Jun 2018, 17:02 (Ref:3832159)   #5821
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It comes to down a massive difference in priorities. ACO wants to be very forward thinking with technology and the environmental aspect. IMSA wants it dirt cheap, and balanced so there good racing, minimal development and no cost escalation.

It's very very hard to mix these priorities, especially the technology versus minimal development sets.


Do you think the idea above addresses this?
Dropping the Hybrids decouples the technology cost barrier for IMSA. Protos in WEC are already limited to 1 high downforce body kit and 1 Low downforce body kit. Do you think would fit IMSA well for minimal dev after Homologation? Then just balance power and weight in IMSA of the homologated cars.
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Old 20 Jun 2018, 17:10 (Ref:3832166)   #5822
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LMP Future Regulations (was Le Mans EVO rules)

The only good reason I see for IMSA and WEC not to have common chassis regs is if IMSA wanted to change to open wheel formula cars or to open cockpit protos). I'm not saying that is at all what IMSA wants).

But fundamentally it seems like a continuing waste of time, resources, and limiting of scope to force manufacturers to choose 1 series or the other or for Ford to have to build two different cars to race in both series. (No one will do this) Both categories utilize a closed cockpit prototype and no matter what happens, the cars in both categories will have similar dimensions, and probably a very similar tire supply from Michelin.
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Old 20 Jun 2018, 18:17 (Ref:3832194)   #5823
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Didn't Audi have the R18s with and without the hybrid system a few years ago? It shows that a common vehicle can be developed around both powertrains.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audi_R...e-tron_quattro
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Old 20 Jun 2018, 18:23 (Ref:3832197)   #5824
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That was a non-hybrid that was adapted. It was only a 2MJ system. I mean I guess you could do that, but you couldn't just whip a 6 or 8 MJ hybrid system out of a car now. They're so deeply incorporated that they just don't work without it.

It still has an issue that even if the cars did work like that, that the cost targets are out by an order of magnitude. The ACO also requires manufacturers to run a hybrid, so the IMSA cars still wouldn't be legal until they added it, so still wouldn't come to Le Mans.

We've got two series trying to achieve two different sets of goals with one set of regulations. That's VERY hard.
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Old 20 Jun 2018, 19:21 (Ref:3832206)   #5825
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But GM hasn't even been part of the meetings, according to reports.
And..? Just because a manufacturer wasn't involved in meetings doesn't mean they can't find the rules interesting enough to join.

Especially if it's hinging on universal rules, which weren't even discussed in the meetings yet.

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Do GM even have any brands in Europe worth using at Le Mans? Chevrolet in Europe is just rebadged Daewoo stuff. They've sold Opel and Vauxhall, got rid of Saab. I'm not sure there's a brand in Europe that GM would use.
Just like with Ford, the answer already races at Le Mans in GTE.

Though the Corvette roadcar and GT cars will never be mid-engined like people keep saying is going to happen, we all know that if GM decided to do it this would be the third time there was a mid-engined Corvette prototype. That's assuming they don't decide to stick with Cadillac for their Prototype activities.

If GM sees value in it, they'll do it.
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