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Old 22 Jun 2007, 18:46 (Ref:1944494)   #101
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JAG should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridJAG should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridJAG should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
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Originally Posted by Super Hans
It was!
Yeah, but are fuel corrected results actually part of Autosport?

Seems a little strange!
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Old 22 Jun 2007, 20:14 (Ref:1944546)   #102
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Originally Posted by JAG
Seems a little strange!
Well, in a way.

Mark Hughes tends to state with total certainly that driver x (on pole) was faster than driver y (4th on the grid) on fuel-corrected times.
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Old 30 Jun 2007, 08:23 (Ref:1950292)   #103
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Now this has all calmed down I have to say... wow! I never expected it to become such a firestorm I guess it's not just me who doesn't like where the magazine is at.
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Old 5 Jul 2007, 15:48 (Ref:1955293)   #104
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Fascinating thread, just found it following the post on Sports and GT and have to say it is dear to my heart!! I have been buying Autosport since the '50s and kept every copy from about 1970 to about 2000 when we moved house and had to move them to my son's house, I cancelled the order at my newsagent at the same time and have vowed not to buy the magazine several times but there is no other choice for enthusiasts and like a druggie I keep coming back, feel that I am taken for granted!

At one time I would read cover to cover, now I am selective and I have to say that reading through the posts here lightning bug sums it up, what AS should give us is depth that TV cannot show, again summarised by Adam Ashmore. My big grouse is the lack of depth in the classes in Sports and GT racing. For a specialist magazine the reporting of the lead class at the detriment of the supporting casses is unforgivable. Le Mans, the biggest race of this sector to say nothing of LMES and ALMS could not exist without classes and to the participants they are just as difficult to win, expensive (relatively) and important as the outright winner but often get few words and no depth at all.

Quality reports and in depth comment on all sectors is what we need, not flashy tabloid style reports by boy reporters. I do sympathise with SS Collins and the guy now resident in Calgary, it is even worse than the UK over there, no choice at all, I go to Calgary regularly and have seen the shelves there! If we don't keep buying the AS, poor as it is now, it may well vanish from the shelves and that would be a shame but the real enthusiast is not catered for at present. Is Andrew VdB still reading this or has he not got the staying power?

Regarding Mark Hughes, perhaps Warren is not giving him as much technical help as before? Agree fully about Nigel R, best bit except for the technical drawings by G Piola which are brilliant, I would love to see some of that technical analysis on all sectors of the sport, you don't get that on the web

Let's keep this thread going, we might get some improvement as reward for buying since Gregor Grant was the editor, he will be turning in his grave at the moment!!

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Old 6 Jul 2007, 12:08 (Ref:1956083)   #105
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Originally Posted by Super Hans

I agree with what you're saying, but as the editor has explained on this very thread, if they put anything other than F1 on the cover, sales take a nosedive.

The more I think about that comment, the more I would seek justification from the editor for it. I would venture to suggest that the immediate post-Le Mans copy of AS is bought in large numbers by Le Mans fans. I doubt very much indeed that a departure - for just one week - from the 'F1 Rules (Covers) OK' mentality would actually see sales plummet - possibly even the opposite..... Le Mans deserves to have that cover.

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Old 6 Jul 2007, 12:11 (Ref:1956086)   #106
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Originally Posted by John Turner
It's not an argument; it's an indisputable fact; sales drop, whether we like it or not, when F1 does not feature as the main front page story. And JAG, what rival magazine do you have in mind that would achieve this altered balance in reporting that you require?
When actually was F1 last off the cover John?

And what were the sales figures in comparison to the norm?

Something is only indisputable if those seeking to prove it provide indisputable proof.

(I'm happy to give you every credit for your support of AS, but here, I think you're fighting something of a losing battle.... )

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Old 6 Jul 2007, 12:29 (Ref:1956102)   #107
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Originally Posted by Aysedasi
When actually was F1 last off the cover John?

And what were the sales figures in comparison to the norm?

Something is only indisputable if those seeking to prove it provide indisputable proof. [/I]
It was towards the back end of last year when Andy Priaulx clinched his third title:
http://tentenths.com/forum/showthrea...lx#post1932224
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Originally Posted by Andrew van de Burgt
It's sad but true - when Autosport puts anything on the cover other than F1 our sales suffer badly. The Andy Priaulx cover last year is the worst selling issue of all time.
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Old 6 Jul 2007, 16:49 (Ref:1956351)   #108
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A circulation of 32000 per week? And yet in the week before Le Mans they failed to publish their annual guide to an event which takes 80,000 motorsport fans to the middle of France. Many of those are die hard enthusiasts and there are many more who are at home - how many of those would regularly buy the magazine if the felt better catered for? By all means leave F1 on the cover but dont forsake the thouands of fans etc that live and breath the sport beyond F1. To me you are fighting a losing battle if you try and chase the tabloid and internet media for headlines.

F1 - there are countless newspapers, internet sites etc doing quality F1 coverage nowadays that most people will have read long before Autosport lands on their mat.

There are also thousands of people regularly attenting touring car races, historic races. etc. If Autosport broadened its out look and its depth of coverage then surely many of these people would driift back to it.

Now a suggestion:

Why not experiment for a while and every week each month do a feature on the last months happening in a niche area of the sport. For instance every first week of the month it could be Sportscars, 2nd week Tourings cars, 3rd Week Historics and 4th say American racing. Each issue could be subtitled: The sportscar issue, or the touring car issue etc and would feature in depth analysis of the last months action, interviews, general features and speculation on the future of each area. This would help satisfy the dedicated fan, without affecting the F1 or other coverage areas and it would help to guage which areas of the sport generate enough interest to generate sales. Better still get the guys who really know their sport to do it for you - I am sure the guys at DSC or similar would love a deal to write a set of monthly reports and features for Autosport and it would avoiding adding massive resources in sending more reporters etc to the events.

Last edited by Mal; 6 Jul 2007 at 16:52.
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Old 7 Jul 2007, 08:53 (Ref:1956733)   #109
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When you think about it it is difficult to believe that it only sells 32,000 copies, perhaps it is the cost, it always used to claim to be the "price of a pint" but not any more
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Old 7 Jul 2007, 09:14 (Ref:1956741)   #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamAshmore
It was towards the back end of last year when Andy Priaulx clinched his third title:
http://tentenths.com/forum/showthrea...lx#post1932224

Hmmm. With all due respect to Mr. Priaulx, I'd still liked to have seen the sales reaction to a shot of Pirro, Werner and Biela on the podium at Le Mans - with a decent side picture of the winning Aston (drivers). I'm sorry but I still don't 'buy' the argument (sorry ) in relation to the immediate post-Le Mans cover. It just doesn't add up. I'd actually expect that to be one of the highest selling issues. What were the sales figures for that issue this year? High? I bet they were - and I'll bet you (in a bet I suppose neither AS or I can win because the proof doesn't exist) that it wasn't just dear Lewis who generated the sales of that issue - it was a high proportion of the returning Brits from Le Mans and the fans who remained at home.

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Old 7 Jul 2007, 09:57 (Ref:1956753)   #111
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Should be easy to see. Although I suspect the number who need to buy Autosport afterwards are on the wane.

I get the argument, I just don't like how Autosport has decided to chase the fickle F1 readership and produce tabloid type articles. I am annoyed because the choice they have made is to tailor the magazine at someone other than myself (and others here). I think they have taken the easy path after superficially studying sales results. The easy path.

I want to buy Autosport for the F1 stuff, but one of the things that annoys me is the quality and style of the F1 reporting. The Sportscar coverage we get is generally pretty decent, IMHO.

The fact that what is on the cover makes such a difference should be a concern to Autosport. It means that people buy the headline, but don't go back for the content. For a publication in good health the cover should largely be irrelevant, I feel.

I don't think the relative weights of each sector of the sport is that far off (e.g. in number of pages), although if there isn't a big F1 story that week then they shouldn't make one up. For example, there was no race the same weekend of Le Mans last year (first diesel win) and the headline was "Fisi Deal means... Renault favourite to sign Kimi". To be fair to Autosport this story was a "special investigation".

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Old 7 Jul 2007, 22:42 (Ref:1957190)   #112
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Originally Posted by AdamAshmore
To be fair to Autosport this story was a "special investigation".

Hey, that special eh........
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Old 8 Jul 2007, 10:50 (Ref:1957457)   #113
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I've never subscribed but I agree that it isn't what it was. That said F1 is more popular than Sportscars (as it always has been). I watched a re run of the GTs from Silverstone last night. You could count the spectators on one hand! I can remember being at 1000km races in the rain with packed crowds, but I digress.

Of course the magazine has to aim for the majority market in order to remain on the shelves, however its clear that in times past F1 and the major events sold enough copies to support better coverage of Club racing, which is clearly not the case these days.

Personally I'd like a bit more on Historics than just Marcus Pye telling us how great single seaters are to the detriment of the Saloon/Touring cars being raced. But it is unlikely to happen.

I buy the mag when I'm in the UK but I doubt if I'll ever be a regular reader again.
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Old 9 Jul 2007, 09:47 (Ref:1958376)   #114
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[quote=AdamAshmore]

The Sportscar coverage we get is generally pretty decent, IMHO.

quote]

Frankly very dissapointed at this comment from you as a sports and GT specialist Mr. Ashmore. You are obviously interested only in the lead class of our racing if you are satisfied with what AS print and I would have expected more from you. The coverage given in that magaizne to the GT classes in either Le Mans series and the LM 24 is pityfull and the amount of space given to GT2 in an FIA race is also disproportionate to the importance of that class to the overall viability of our type of racing.

One of the things that makes our sector of the sport exciting is the interplay between the classes, the David & Goliath struggles, the technical edges that various people find and so on. Most of this goes over the head of AS and most of its editorial staff but you should appreciate it.

To say you are satisfied is either just giving in or displaying the same mind set

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Old 9 Jul 2007, 10:13 (Ref:1958412)   #115
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Oh, I doubt that Adam is doing that. Perhaps he was just referring to the standard of the little reporting sportscars gets? (Hell, he can speak for himself, of course.... )
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Old 9 Jul 2007, 10:17 (Ref:1958416)   #116
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And even if he was giving in (which I doubt somehow) who could blame him?

Let's face it, we've been moaning about this here a lot of late. This first started becoming a major issue back in 2004 when we had that unbelievably awful "Greatest Crashes" feature, where we were told here that Autosport was, in effect, trying to compete with Nuts and Zoo!
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Old 9 Jul 2007, 11:00 (Ref:1958449)   #117
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Originally Posted by old man
Frankly very dissapointed at this comment from you as a sports and GT specialist Mr. Ashmore. You are obviously interested only in the lead class of our racing if you are satisfied with what AS print and I would have expected more from you. The coverage given in that magaizne to the GT classes in either Le Mans series and the LM 24 is pityfull and the amount of space given to GT2 in an FIA race is also disproportionate to the importance of that class to the overall viability of our type of racing.
Aysedasi has spoken well for me

The actual writing (what there is) is good. I was comparing the standard of the report to that of a general F1 article. The latter is always exagerated and hyped and often wrong because of it!

I was also comparing the Sportscar coverage to the other sectors (non-F1) and it stands up well.

I see your point, but I wasn't really tackling that issue with that post. Your issue is similar for most of race reporting for any series, only the front of the field is covered - but then they only have a limited space in the magazine. It is unrealistic to go that far for a busy LMS, ALMS, BTCC, WTCC, DTM, F3 (British and European), etc... as good as it would be!
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...the amount of space given to GT2 in an FIA race is also disproportionate to the importance of that class to the overall viability of our type of racing.
Possibly, yes. Although they are less important in this context.
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One of the things that makes our sector of the sport exciting is the interplay between the classes, the David & Goliath struggles, the technical edges that various people find and so on.
Agreed, but as I said, I a wasn't tackling that particular problem. In addition I was also trying to factor in a little realism.
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Most of this goes over the head of AS and most of its editorial staff but you should appreciate it.
What concerns me most is that I think the staff do appreciate this, they are motorsport fans, but chose for commercial reasons to ignore it.
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To say you are satisfied is either just giving in or displaying the same mind set
I refute that. Although my sentence about Sportscar coverage was too superficial.

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Old 9 Jul 2007, 14:00 (Ref:1958649)   #118
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OK I accept your comments, but what really annoys me is that I am aware of the superhuman efforts put in by many teams and drivers just to get on the grid for the so called lower classes only to have their efforts ignored or unknown because of a lack of reporting. Major teams have come and gone in GT racing because the investors could not get the coverage that they would get at low levels in other sports, probably for less money. The way Autosport handles it a sponsor would get more publicity for winning in British GT than for winning the class with the same car at the LM 24. Panoz and LNT must have paid out a fortune in advertising their 2006 win in the magazine and I question if the editorial they got was not directly related to what they spent, granted this is often the sad truth.

I agree, to get coverage you need to win or at least podium but there are times when the top three in GT2 don't even all get named, let alone reported on

The 4 classes in the LMS or the ALMS are equal as individual races in my book and all deserve equal coverage for them to be able to justify sponsor expenditure

We need to keep telling young Andrew vdG what a poor job he is doing, not say we are satisfied because I don't think any of the sportscar fans are happy with that mag but it is "Hobson's" and he depends on that
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Old 9 Jul 2007, 15:03 (Ref:1958712)   #119
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We need to keep telling young Andrew vdG what a poor job he is doing
I don't think Andrew vdB is doing a bad job, I just think his hands are tied.
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Old 9 Jul 2007, 15:22 (Ref:1958739)   #120
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Originally Posted by old man
...to get coverage you need to win or at least podium but there are times when the top three in GT2 don't even all get named, let alone reported on
I generally agree. It isn't good.
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The 4 classes in the LMS or the ALMS are equal as individual races in my book and all deserve equal coverage...
I disagree here. They are not equal in terms of prestige, IMHO. Maybe that is a discussion we can have in Sportscar. It is an interesting one.
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We need to keep telling young Andrew vdG what a poor job he is doing...
I have no idea if he is doing this or not. I don't want to blame here. However I would like to point out that I do not like the way Autosport has changed.
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Old 9 Jul 2007, 15:33 (Ref:1958757)   #121
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Right, let's start a debate on class prestige, would be interesting to have other opinions on that forum
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Old 13 Jul 2007, 14:49 (Ref:1962513)   #122
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Originally Posted by Knowlesy
This first started becoming a major issue back in 2004 when we had that unbelievably awful "Greatest Crashes" feature, where we were told here that Autosport was, in effect, trying to compete with Nuts and Zoo!
I think that you would find that most of the current incumbents concerned with editorial policy are different to those of 2004, and you will have noted that they seem to have moved away from that 'style' to a certain extent.

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Originally Posted by old man
OK I accept your comments, but what really annoys me is that I am aware of the superhuman efforts put in by many teams and drivers just to get on the grid for the so called lower classes only to have their efforts ignored or unknown because of a lack of reporting. Major teams have come and gone in GT racing because the investors could not get the coverage that they would get at low levels in other sports, probably for less money. The way Autosport handles it a sponsor would get more publicity for winning in British GT than for winning the class with the same car at the LM 24. Panoz and LNT must have paid out a fortune in advertising their 2006 win in the magazine and I question if the editorial they got was not directly related to what they spent, granted this is often the sad truth.
I don't really understand the point that you are making here. Motor racing teams don't go racing to see their efforts covered in motor racing magazines. They do it because they want to. Sure, it's good to see your efforts recognised in print but it is hardly the primary objective. Autosport will take the money of whoever is prepared to pay the going rate to advertise their 'product''; presumably LNT thought it worth their while at the time. Just as commercialism has grown in motorsport, so it has affected magazines. Sponsorship helps to pay for one, advertising the other.

What I think so many are overlooking here, is the vastly greater volume of motorsport that takes place today, and it has been growing for many years. There is no way that all races can be covered at the level of detail they were, say 30 or 40 years ago. The print space simply isn't available to provide that level of coverage. I am aware of the difficult decisions that have to be made each week in just the National section alone regarding what to include and to what level of detail and, therefore, what else has to be sacrificed. The same will surely apply to the main section.

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Originally Posted by old man
One of the things that makes our sector of the sport exciting is the interplay between the classes, the David & Goliath struggles, the technical edges that various people find and so on. Most of this goes over the head of AS and most of its editorial staff but you should appreciate it
Not so, and see my above comments. Also this will (sadly) have a relatively limited customer appeal. It's only enthusiasts/anoraks like us whose attention will be held by this information. F1, whether we like it or not (and I don't - the fact that is, not F1 itself!)) is what captures the imagination of the casual enthusiast many of whom think that it is the pinnacle of the sport and therefore rarely look beyond it. I can assure you that those within the editorial staff are all enthusiasts but that the magazine has to remain viable commercially. Autosport is a product of our times; I'm not sure that we can expect it any longer to cater for the sort of 'pure' motor racing enthusiasts that inhabit this site. If it had sales to play with, I guess it could experiment a bit but as someone has said, with sales of around 32,000, and that's on a good week, that is unlikely to happen.

I have been critical of the magazine in the past and I too would rather see a different balance in the reporting emphasis, but we have to be realistic. I have said before that Le Mans should have its own front cover, particularly when, as in 2006 it did not clash with a GP. Others have said that a magazine shouldn't have to rely on its front cover to sell. True it shouldn't, but we live in this world of immediacy and superficiality - 'I want to see it now or not at all' approach, the limited attention span, the appalling celebrity status cult (witness Hamilton Hype - it never stops!). Given that AS has to rely for much of its sales on the casual F1 fan, it seems that if it isn't on the front cover, he's lost interest and the eye moves onto the next shelf. It's an indictment of our age. Do I like it that way? Of course not!

Last edited by John Turner; 13 Jul 2007 at 14:51.
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Old 14 Jul 2007, 09:25 (Ref:1962936)   #123
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All very sad John, but yes, I have to agree with pretty well all of that. I guess I (and many others here) have to face the fact that AS simply isn't the magazine that we once loved and never will be again. I'm sitting here with the last two issues still in their cellophane - I'm that keen to read them.....
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Old 16 Jul 2007, 10:36 (Ref:1964277)   #124
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A couple of points Mr Turner, team owners may go racing for their own enjoyment but the sponsors that both the team and the driver must find probably don't. In deciding if the deal offers value for money many sponsors measure the value of column inches and pictures and Ratel published some interesting "Value of lead car" figures a few years ago where they actually quantified the cash equivalent to a sponsor. The work was very interesting and took in all types of press coverage from daily papers to web-sites with readership weighting and many other factors. I am sorry to disgaree but mentions do matter. Also there are team owners who want to see recognition of their achievements and take their money elsewhere if they do not feel appreciated, I could give you names but ....

Secondly, I am truely amazed that they only sell 32k copies and that this is so dependent on the casual F1 buyer. This indicates that lots of us "anoraks" are simply not buying it because we get our information on the web now, probably as it happens or Monday morning and find nothing new to read in the AS, Aysedasi's comments tend to confirm that. They do need to improve the depth of specialist reporting as I think I said earlier, if they are to get the enthusiasts on side again.

The LMS, FIA and ALMS are top international series and if you compare the way the US TV channels sell the series during a broadcast with both what European TV puts out and what AS puts out you can see what can be done.

I have no reason to care about the level of sales of AS in particular but I do care about the level of professionalism in sports and GT racing and that depends on finance that must to a great extent come from sponsors and sponsors care about publicity and brand image. Ultimately the AS staff and lots of other people's income depends on this perception and to say that publicity and public recognition do not matter is simply wrong.

You are quite correct, there is a vast amount of motorsport these days and any money out there that can be linked to this type of activity will go where it gets the best exposure

Last edited by old man; 16 Jul 2007 at 10:43.
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Old 19 Jul 2007, 11:24 (Ref:1967339)   #125
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ss_collins should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridss_collins should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridss_collins should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridss_collins should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
If you read a 1970's issue of Autosport the race reports were more readable - if ou go back to a 1950's issue they were amazing! I don't read the race reports now - rather just the news - which is still good.

However there is an attitude from some area sthat all magazines especially news based ones are doomed to death by internet - so the circulations are all in freefall - however I work on a motorsport magazine with a rising circulation... go figure.

Actually the Hamilton effect will boost the AS circulation a lot this year I suspect
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