Champ Car teams at Indianapolis - How close did we come

D.R.T. · 24 Apr 2007, 12:44 (Ref:1899296)

A Robin Miller article

http://www.speedtv.com/articles/auto/indycar/36896/

climb · 24 Apr 2007, 14:38 (Ref:1899362)

As I have said in the Zhuhai thread,
http://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=94236

This could be an interesting option; but given the conditions put by KK (all of them wholly understandable and acceptable), I think TG's main problem is finding the engines i.e. convincing Honda to provide them by the end of April.

SPRacer · 24 Apr 2007, 18:19 (Ref:1899506)

If Tony and Kevin could have made it work logistically, the comments in the article by Gerald Forsythe and Sebastien Bourdais make it seem that teams would not really be all that interested given the fact that they would be at an extreme disadvantage in trying to run competitive cars...

My point: maybe this wasn't as close to happening as we think even if a deal was struck between series owners.

Fogelhund · 24 Apr 2007, 20:26 (Ref:1899617)

http://www.tsn.ca/auto_racing/news_s...05375&hubname=

TSN has some comments from Tony George as well. I don't think this was very close to happening at all.

D.R.T. · 24 Apr 2007, 23:56 (Ref:1899753)

The article states this discussion was earlier this year. Would be interesting to see how early in the year this offer or suggestion was made ?

Whatever happened it does not seem Tony George was too much interested in making it happen though

Tenoch · 25 Apr 2007, 14:21 (Ref:1900160)

Seems like KK thinks they were close to striking a deal which would enable Champ Car teams to race there. The actual teams being ready and set to go racing at the Indy 500 was probably much farther away.

Honestly I think the teams have their hands full with the new chassis and trying to figure it out to be bothered to go race in a non-championship race. If the teams really wanted to give the 500 a go then wouldn’t they just go of and do it.

Lots of CART teams have done it before most recently Haas took Bourdais and Junqueira there. Is there anything stopping the teams from doing the same this year?

stradlin21 · 25 Apr 2007, 21:47 (Ref:1900482)

a completey stupid idea from Kalkhoven

As Curt Cavin from the Indystar agrees with me and also the person asking the question http://blogs.indystar.com/racingexpert/

it was impossible on so many front, what are those guys smoking

KK, focus on getting things right in Champ Car before making stupid suggestions like this

indycool · 25 Apr 2007, 21:57 (Ref:1900493)

Absolutely, stradlin.....the RM story quotes TG as saying the "offer" call came March 10 and it was just general conversation. Even the KK quote says "four or five" drivers, unspecified either in number or who they would be, so it wasn't even a proposal of any kind. In doing so, KK must've known Feb. 10 that China was on the ropes for May. IMO, he has enough to do to promote CC, if CC teams want to enter Indy, they can anyway, and TG could not possibly make a deal like that fly without being unfair to his IRL regulars. Not very smart, but KK got his name out there and created a May issue.

Tim Northcutt · 25 Apr 2007, 23:37 (Ref:1900525)

Hmmmm...it IS nearly May again....

Time to distract the focus of the OW world from Indy and onto other OW subjects...credible or not....

Surprised????

Don't be....every year, just like the tulips that sprout in my backyard in late April here in Indy, yet another IRL/Champ Car/Indy 500 distraction also blossoms...

KK has all of those billions...spring for the engine leases, just like everyone else who entered did...

KK said "No More Champ Champ Car Welfare," yet he wants freebies from Tony George???

They aren't his engines!!! They belong to Honda...call Robert Clarke!!!

What a whole bunch of foolishness...just because CCWS will be invisible until Portland on June 10th....

Wanna race at Indy??? Pony up the cash and put the teams to work...

Either that, or focus on sorting the new race packages you have to get them ready for the rest of the season....6 weeks is a long time.

BTW...I'm tired of this annual nonsense...

Put up or shut up....the door is open, but you have to walk through it like Carl Hass did a couple of years ago...no one is stopping any CCWS team from doing so...

indycool · 26 Apr 2007, 00:33 (Ref:1900544)

Agree, Tim. KK fooled very few people with this manipulation from what I've read in the media and on the boards but it's just the annual May War Exposure Plan with a new twist. I thought KK was smarter than to act like Gentilozzi with the media.

Read somewhere that a poll got started asking, "Should TG allow the CC teams to enter Indy?" Well, yes. He already does and has issued CART/CC teams invitations all these years. And they can come with the programs available to them under the rules exactly like everyone else does. Asking for free engines is a surefire deal-killer and TG would have a VERY unhappy paddock if he even considered something like that. That's where that poll is skewed. It's like one of those "when did you stop screwing your sister?" questions.

dubby99 · 26 Apr 2007, 00:57 (Ref:1900550)

I don't think the offer is as foolish as people might think. If CC were to get free engines it would have come directly from Honda on TG behalf to show some sort of sign that both sides can work together.

In the long run millions of $$$ would be saved for both parties if they come to a simple agreement.

indycool · 26 Apr 2007, 01:02 (Ref:1900551)

That's the thing. Both sides CAN'T work together on the basis of one side asking another for something for free. This was just a setup for some ink....just before May.

dubby99 · 26 Apr 2007, 01:21 (Ref:1900557)

Quote:

Originally Posted by indycool

That's the thing. Both sides CAN'T work together on the basis of one side asking another for something for free. This was just a setup for some ink....just before May.

True, but think of the amount of extra publicity the 500 would get, i mean the media would beat there drum over it and turn it into a massive hype.

They should try it and if TV rating goes up atleast 50% then it's a win win situation and the need for a merger would be in black and white.

indycool · 26 Apr 2007, 02:02 (Ref:1900568)

I don't think there'd be that much media hype, dubby. Highest TV rating for the season, in either series, has been a .7. Bourdais and Graham Rahal recently bad-mouthed the ovals and/or "500" and/or IRL. Tracy's hurt. KK just said "4 or 5 drivers", so who did he control and who was he going to send? Forsythe said he'd go for "free cars, free engines and Penske's setups," which is an indication to me his drivers wouldn't be going.

As far as I know, KK might control his own two drivers, Jani and Gommendy, and his contract with Legge places her with Coyne. I doubt the media would be jumping off bridges because of them taking a crack at it. Besides, something like only eight of 17 drivers who started at Houston have ever been on an oval (plus Pagenaud and Graham Rahal, who ran Milwaukee in Atlantics). Bourdais said he didn't want to do a one-off because they'd "get our arse kicked."

Again, IMO, this one was a PR show....nothing more.

mountainstar · 26 Apr 2007, 02:13 (Ref:1900570)

Quote:

Originally Posted by indycool

That's the thing. Both sides CAN'T work together on the basis of one side asking another for something for free. This was just a setup for some ink....just before May.

It's tg has that about the weakest entry list in living memory and someone is coming along with 5-6 cars propelled by good drivers and you want to turn that down. It is not unreasonable to ask for some show of good faith in return for champcar paying for 6 sponsored well driven cars in return for filling out your field half of which is going to be filled by garbage lashed up at the last minute.

You say it wasn't a proposal of anykind? Umm mr. george never returned the phone call and didn't bother discussing it so there!

This was not a setup for ink. In fact, making this public puts a bullet in the head of the annual merger stories the irl media department cultivates to keep what little buzz is left going and now we don't have to listen to merger crap all may.

For years we have listened to people in and out of the business pine away for a merger. This was a legitimate offer, but I think the grand scheme was different. Mr. Kalkoven put a reasonable, achievable offer on the table to Mr. george which was rejected out of hand with no negotiation. The end game in all this is that it shows undisputably Mr. george is an obstructionist and has refused every single offer and mediation since November 1991 in Houston, TX. He is the sole individual that stops any attempts to unify open wheel racing. End of story. You can spin, spin, spin but that is a FACT you cannot dispute. Mr. george is an obstructionist.

I take the news with huge relief. It has strengthened the resolve within champcar now that this has past and it allows us to move forward focusing on our business rather than chasing tony georges tale.

And tim you wont have to worry about this annual nonsense anymore cause it's the last time we come to the table with open hands. It's time to

mountainstar · 26 Apr 2007, 02:30 (Ref:1900574)

In an email from Mr. Kalkoven to robin miller made public:

"It will never happen. No matter what the deal, no matter what the offer TG will never allow integration. Or at least those advising TG will never let it happen. Here was a genuine offer that would cost Tony virtually nothing in comparison with funding the entries himself and would have hugely increased the interest in the 500. Think of the rivalries. Marco against Graham. Danica against Katherine. Sebastian against Wheldon. The list goes on. The winners would have been the Fans, Open Wheel Motorsport and TG. I never even received a call back."

D.R.T. · 26 Apr 2007, 03:45 (Ref:1900598)

Another article from Miller that puts this situation in a good manner.

http://www.speedtv.com/commentary/36919/

From all of this free engines seems such a small issue.

There would be some issues that would have to be overcome such as has been mentioned here, but it never got the chance without the return phone call.

I fail to see, why is was a stupid call by KK ? Here he was trying to do something proactive about improving his series and the Indy 500 and people here are calling that stupid ?

I guess some dont want to see either gain growth.

D.R.T. · 26 Apr 2007, 09:43 (Ref:1900783)

Apologies to double post but re - reading I found this

Quote:

Originally Posted by indycool

Absolutely, stradlin.....the RM story quotes TG as saying the "offer" call came March 10

Actually Indycool TG says

Quote:

“On or about February 10th, I spoke with Kevin on the phone when he suggested that perhaps he could exercise some flexibility with China to free up the month of May,”

Quote:

Originally Posted by indycool

if CC teams want to enter Indy, they can anyway, and TG could not possibly make a deal like that fly without being unfair to his IRL regulars.

As Miller says how is getting free engines for a couple of Champ Car teams any different to supporting 1/3 of the Indy car field. Isnt that being unfair to IRL regulars ?

indycool · 26 Apr 2007, 13:13 (Ref:1900913)

FACTS: C'mon Mountainstar.

The quote I read said Kalkhoven suggested "four or five" CC drivers. That doesn't sound like an ironclad proposal to me. Is it four or is it five? And who would those be? Last I heard, KK controlled contracts of Jani and Gommendy and also Legge. The other teams are independent contractors, at least supposedly.

Bourdais and Graham Rahal both bad-mouthed ovals and Indy in Houston. Tracy's hurt. Other than Pagenaud and Rahal running ATlantic cars at Milwaukee, only eight of the 17 starters at Houston had ever been on an oval at all. Bourdais said a one-off wouldn't work, that they'd "get their arse kicked."

Did they even agree to talk about it further? What kept KK from calling TG again if he wanted the deal instead of playing it like he was waiting by the phone for an answer to a vague idea that only had free engines for him in it? If the gazillionaire needed a quarter for a pay phone, I'll loan it to him.

It's KK's "allegation" that TG is funding a third of the field at Indy. I very much doubt that. He sounded like Gentilozzi to start with and is backpedalling now to try to make himself look like the saviour against the evil empire to stir the CW mantra again. Baloney.

D.R.T., you're right....I was in error on the month....typo.....

D.R.T. · 26 Apr 2007, 15:04 (Ref:1900990)

Quote:

Originally Posted by indycool

D.R.T., you're right....I was in error on the month....typo.....

No problem it happens, however it kind of alters the point you were making with those dates.

Quote:

Originally Posted by indycool

The quote I read said Kalkhoven suggested "four or five" CC drivers. That doesn't sound like an ironclad proposal to me.

Its a start, from that start you would want some feedback from the other half wouldnt you before anything can go to the ironclad phase. A response was never provided

Quote:

Originally Posted by indycool

It's KK's "allegation" that TG is funding a third of the field at Indy. I very much doubt that.

Actually its Robin Millers, who we have seen of late calls a spade a spade not really worrying who is on the recieving end.

indycool · 26 Apr 2007, 17:19 (Ref:1901069)

I'm sure in a general conversation, there was general feedback in the first place. If there was specific feedback to a serious proposal, BOTH of them know how to use the telephone, I feel certain.

For KK to say, in essence, "Gee, I waited six weeks for Tony to call me about my idea and he never called and it's too late now" makes KK look absolutely stupid, IMO. And if you take his email to journalists trying to rehabilitate a good portion of the public thinking this was ridiculous, he just digs the hole deeper.

If he really wanted to pursue it, he would have. If he wasn't dealing from the bottom of the deck with the FIA on China, he would have.

This is really the first time KK has sounded like Gentilozzi and shame on him.

mountainstar · 26 Apr 2007, 18:52 (Ref:1901137)

Quote:

Originally Posted by indycool

I'm sure in a general conversation, there was general feedback in the first place. If there was specific feedback to a serious proposal, BOTH of them know how to use the telephone, I feel certain.

For KK to say, in essence, "Gee, I waited six weeks for Tony to call me about my idea and he never called and it's too late now" makes KK look absolutely stupid, IMO. And if you take his email to journalists trying to rehabilitate a good portion of the public thinking this was ridiculous, he just digs the hole deeper.

If he really wanted to pursue it, he would have. If he wasn't dealing from the bottom of the deck with the FIA on China, he would have.

This is really the first time KK has sounded like Gentilozzi and shame on him.

B.S. tony said on windbag two months ago he owed KK a call. I don't expect KK to be speed dialling Mr. george all day. The fact that mr. george failed to even discuss it, shame on him.

mountainstar · 26 Apr 2007, 18:54 (Ref:1901140)

Quote:

Originally Posted by indycool

FACTS: C'mon Mountainstar.

The quote I read said Kalkhoven suggested "four or five" CC drivers. That doesn't sound like an ironclad proposal to me. Is it four or is it five? And who would those be? Last I heard, KK controlled contracts of Jani and Gommendy and also Legge. The other teams are independent contractors, at least supposedly.

Bourdais and Graham Rahal both bad-mouthed ovals and Indy in Houston. Tracy's hurt. Other than Pagenaud and Rahal running ATlantic cars at Milwaukee, only eight of the 17 starters at Houston had ever been on an oval at all. Bourdais said a one-off wouldn't work, that they'd "get their arse kicked."

Did they even agree to talk about it further? What kept KK from calling TG again if he wanted the deal instead of playing it like he was waiting by the phone for an answer to a vague idea that only had free engines for him in it? If the gazillionaire needed a quarter for a pay phone, I'll loan it to him.

It's KK's "allegation" that TG is funding a third of the field at Indy. I very much doubt that. He sounded like Gentilozzi to start with and is backpedalling now to try to make himself look like the saviour against the evil empire to stir the CW mantra again. Baloney.

D.R.T., you're right....I was in error on the month....typo.....

It is a fact tony is an obstructionist. He has refused any and every proposal since november 1991.

Why do you keep defending this muppet?

Fogelhund · 26 Apr 2007, 20:44 (Ref:1901214)

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainstar

It is a fact tony is an obstructionist. He has refused any and every proposal since november 1991.

Why do you keep defending this muppet?

There are places for name calling, but this isn't one of them.

TG has refused all proposals since November 1991? What evidence is there of this?

So we are to believe that this whole "musing" didn't happen, because TG didn't phone KK once. Really, that is absolutely ridiculous to believe that people are so dogmatic that something as grand as this, failed because TG didn't phone KK, and KK wouldn't phone TG back on principle. Such a theory makes everybody involved (particularly KK) look absolutely foolish.

Robin Miller sure hit a home run here, in an effort to get message boards alive, with something that wasn't even much more than a musing, and wasn't taken seriously by much of anyone, besides the same message boards.

mountainstar · 26 Apr 2007, 21:13 (Ref:1901238)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

TG has refused all proposals since November 1991? What evidence is there of this?

If you really feel you need to relearn history, it's all been well documented from that time to now in On Track, Racer, Indystar, Autosport etc. You can avail yourself of the international motor racing research center at watkins glen, ny. http://www.racingarchives.org/ Have fun!

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
Why don't the Champ car teams take part in this year's Indy 500?	luke	IRL Indycar Series	57	5 Mar 2007 08:23
Wilson close to Champ Car deal	Dov	ChampCar World Series	50	15 Mar 2004 14:33
Keohane close to champ car seat (also)	Ej10	ChampCar World Series	3	11 Mar 2004 17:55