Drifting

[macdaddy]

When they boys bought Cosworth, they mentioned that it was their intention to break into the Tuner-market.

And then we had a thread about "Offseason Predictions" - in which I mentioned that I could foresee "Drifting" as being a support event at ChampCar events in 2005.

Well... If LongBeach is any example, I may have been right...

The Inaugural Long Beach Drifting Challenge, conducted in conjunction with Champ Car and Formula Drift, will be the first time Drifting has ever appeared (legally!) on city streets and the first Drifting demonstration to take place around the entire length of a race circuit.

“I believe this will be an exciting new addition to our race weekend that will not only be the first-ever full-course Drifting competition, but will also attract a whole new audience to our event,” said Jim Michaelian, President/CEO of the Grand Prix Association of Long Beach.

From ChampCar.

[StickShift]

Unholy.

[macdaddy]

I think that it will help attract new fans, and I don't think it's a bad idea.

My only concern would be the rubber that they're gonna leave on the racetrack. The article mentions that they run right up until the race starts on Sunday. It's safe to assume that drifter-cars and ChampCars don't use the same tire compounds.

[jjspierx]

Why is it unholy? I think any chance to have more people come to races is good. Maybe they will become Champcar fans. I've been to a D-1 drifting competition before(it was going on at Infineon raceway one of my race weekends) and it was pretty fun to watch.

Macdaddy - Yes VERY VERY different compounds, the drifters use ultra-hard compounds that offer very little grip. I seriously doubt it will have any effect whatsoever for the Champcars.

[macdaddy]

I'm glad you jumped in on my query, jj. I had you in mind as I poised the question. I was always of the impression that, the more dis-similar the compound, the more problems it would cause for the ChampCars. I gather that I had this backward? I hope it's not an issue, as it's obvious that the drifters will be laying down alot of rubber.

[Silk Cut Jaguar]

Shall we start taking bets on who will spin more, the drifters or the Champ Car rookies?

[macdaddy]

I think the grid is looking pretty darned good, myself.

[Silk Cut Jaguar]

In all fairness I think the grid is looking pretty respectable too. I just wanted an excuse to crack a bad joke

[codename_47]

If it brings extra young fans to mould into Champcar fans through the gate (spending their disposable income while they're there!) then it can't be that bad...can it....

[jjspierx]

Originally Posted by macdaddy

I'm glad you jumped in on my query, jj. I had you in mind as I poised the question. I was always of the impression that, the more dis-similar the compound, the more problems it would cause for the ChampCars. I gather that I had this backward? I hope it's not an issue, as it's obvious that the drifters will be laying down alot of rubber.

Alright, I'll add a little more input. Tire compounds are an extremely complex topic, that I admittedly know relatively little about. I am much more knowledgable about tire construction and suspension setup and theory. Tire compounds are by far the biggest unknown in racing. Even Bridgestone and Michelin in F1 have no way of producing identical tires that offer the same level of grip and that wear in a constant fashion. So much money goes into tire development and a majority of that money is spent researching the rubber compounds used. The level of complexity in tire compounds is absolutely mind-blowing to me and has gotten much more complex in that last few years with BS and Michelin in F1. They are so complex that they are designed to actually make a chemical bond with the surface that they are rolling over to increase the level of grip(this always happened in the past, but now they are able to control it).

Anyways back to the topic of drifting, and tire compounds and how they might play a role in Champcar. First off, the main problem caused by rubber on a track, isn't the rubber laid on the asphalt that is sticking to the asphalt, its the marbles or rubber buildup from the tires that isn't sticking to the ashpalt. In fact, having rubber that is laid down on a track actually will increase the level of grip provided to most any other tire rolling over it. The rubber on the track is sticky and provides more traction to another tire rolling over it...TO A POINT. The reason a tire grips a surface is because the rubber is pliable and is actually sinking into the little cracks and bumps of the surface as the car turns and tries to lose grip it is hard for the tire to start sliding when there are millions of tiny sized rubber particles actually sunk into the surface of the cement. This is why a track looses grip over its life because the surface is smoothed over by constant use(keep in mind the track may get cracks or bumps, but these aren't the same as the tiny(microscopic sometimes)bumps that allows a tire to have grip). So as I was saying before, rubber on a track usually increases grip, but it gets to a point where so much rubber can be laid down that it is already filling these tiny bumps and then a rolling tire will lose grip because it will just be sliding on top of rubber already laid down on the track. Especially on REALLY hot days this is noticeable, because the rubber on track becomes greasy, and your car will feel like its always sliding around corners and that the track has no grip.

Now, back to drifting. The tires used in drifting are a very very hard compound and therefore, rubber won't be coming off them in the form of marbles, like we see with Champcar or F1. So that won't be an issue. Also the harder compound will leave less rubber on the track than a softer compound and therefore I don't see there being an issue with too much rubber being on the track.

So back to your point Macdaddy, I could be wrong, but I don't think the difference in compounds is really much of an issue at all. Also keep in mind, the line that drifters use around the track will vary quite a bit from the Champcar line, they will use a lot REALLY early apexes, and REALLY late apexes as well, so that will also decrease the chance of their rubber buildup affecting the Champcars.

[nsxr]

jjspierx I like what you wrote except for two things. Drift tires are High GRIP.They need to be , to withstand being burned out and moving both sideways and fowards. Low grip tires would cause you to spin out just after the apex. Only those new to practicing drifting use low grip. Those tires arent race tires there street tires. Hey are you planning to go to D1 At Irwindale? sorry had to share my two cents. I'm glad I live in LB I get to see all of this live

[macdaddy]

I'd think that a soft (high-grip) compound would make the tires wear away extremely quickly, thereby making Drifting a more expensive discipline. And I didn't know that they made "really high grip" street tires.

[StickShift]

Drifting during a Champ Car weekend is like figure skating during the intermissions at a Hockey Game. Although they are both sports played on ice, they are two completely different breeds.

[jjspierx]

Originally Posted by nsxr

jjspierx I like what you wrote except for two things. Drift tires are High GRIP.They need to be , to withstand being burned out and moving both sideways and fowards. Low grip tires would cause you to spin out just after the apex. Only those new to practicing drifting use low grip. Those tires arent race tires there street tires. Hey are you planning to go to D1 At Irwindale? sorry had to share my two cents. I'm glad I live in LB I get to see all of this live

Hmmm...I was always led to believe Drifters use hard compound tires. I know street drifters do, but I guess I am wrong when it comes to the actual competitive drifters. I'm not sure why they use softer compound tires, but I'll tell you, I don't buy the "Low grip tires would cause you to spin out just after the apex." comment." I've done plenty of drifting around(on the streets and on the track", and I can tell you drifting on harder compound tires is much easier, and in no way have I ever felt that the harder compound made it easier for me to spin out after the apex of a corner. Drifting is much more about throttle control, vs steering input than most people realize, and its quite easy to pull out of a slide simply by modulating the gas pedal. Sorry to be disagreable NSXR, I do believe you that they use soft tires, I just don't think thats the right reason, but i could be wrong, again. It happens all the time.

[macdaddy]

Stickshift:
Drifting during a Champ Car weekend is like figure skating during the intermissions at a Hockey Game. Although they are both sports played on ice, they are two completely different breeds.

If the NHL was struggling for fans, and figure skating fans offered a new demographic, this would be a great way for the NHL to broaden their fanbase.

[jjspierx]

Originally Posted by StickShift

Drifting during a Champ Car weekend is like figure skating during the intermissions at a Hockey Game. Although they are both sports played on ice, they are two completely different breeds.

I don't agree StickShift. I agree they are two different sports, but its not as drastic as figure skating during a hockey game. Most race fans love cars and especially fast cars. Drifting cars look good, sound good, drive fast, slide around a lot and are fun to watch. I think a majority of race fans will enjoy the show. I'm not exactly a huge drift fan, especially as I race Formula cars, but I've seen a drifting competition and I enjoyed it quite a bit. I don't think I'd pay to see one, but if it was part of a show I was already paying for, I'd love to see one again. I bet if you were to see one, you'd probably like it too, although you might not admit it afterwards.

[LadyRaceFan]

Saw it at Laguna last year and I loved it! I look forward to seeing them again at Long Beach.

[GBoehm]

I love Champ Car but if there is racing to be watched I will watch it, honestly I love watching NASCAR on road courses, because driver skill actually shows.

[Tenoch]

as an ameatour (spelling) drifter I can say that drifting is like the hot rod culture of the 1950's you tune up your car as far as your wallet can afford and sometimes more, and then you go out on the streets and proof who's machine and skills are the best. I became addicted to the stuff in the two months i lived in Japan, when I came back to the states there wasn't anything I could think about except tuning my car. I think that CCWS is doing a great job at getting these people to the track the only challenge will be to get them to become true CCWS fans.

[JohnSSC]

Anything that brings people to the sport is a good thing!

Motor racing has a "Big Tent." Everything from open wheel to drag racing to ice racing to dirt track racing to sports car racing.

If drifting brings people in and gets them exposed to other forms of motorsports it is all good.

[Tracey]

Being a total newcomer to the phrase 'drifting' how does a drifting contest winner get decided? I saw a demo at the Autosport show, looks cool, but not sure how the competitive side of it works.

Don't think I'll be trying it in my car, somehow?

[Tenoch]

The driver who can make their car seem like its out of the control the most without actually losing control will win, that the basic principle. Drifting started in the mountains of Japan and it simulates driving on ice or snow.

[macdaddy]

There are a panel of judges, then?
I wonder how they can judge a car in a place like LongBeach, where they are to use the entire racing circuit?

[jjspierx]

I don't think its going to be a judged competition. I think its just going to be an exhibition of drifting.

[Tenoch]

I hope this helps I got it of the drifting.com Forums

Judging

What are the judges looking for?
Drifting is a sport that is judged similar to ice skating or Snowboarding. Just like any sport, there are criteria to look for. There are minimum requirements to a good drift that everyone must understand such as:

Entry speed-This is part of the criteria that will be met very easily with the use of a radar gun with speed display. Entry speed is one of the most visible aspects that judges will look for because it will determine the other parts of a driver?s drift.

Line clipping-This is another part of drift that the judges will be looking into. The "Clipping" line is often judged by how well the driver take a drive line. The line itself should always involve the vehicle hitting the right apex of a corner. Judges prefer to see a driver take a tight line around a corner, putting the nose of the car as close as possible to the apex of the turn. Getting the back end of the car close to the outside of a turn also demonstrates car control and can score the driver additional points.

Angle and counter steer-Driving angle of the vehicle is the angle of rotation of the vehicle relative to the direction of its travel. Basically this means that the farther the back end of the car comes around (without losing control), the more points a driver would score in this category. Angle also refers to the length of time a drift is maintained as well as the average angle of the vehicle during the turn. This means that getting the back end to come around for a short period of time won?t score the driver many points, even if the angle of rotation was significant. A vehicle that exhibits extreme angles without spinning out will be awarded high points.

Presentation-How a driver puts speed, line and angle the best will score very well with the judges. There is also another factor and that is how the driver presents his or her drift technique. Just like any other form of competition, there will be an individual with a certain spark or energy that makes them stand out during competition. When a competitor puts that extra flare or energy into their run, the judges may pay more attention to the individual. The most universal component of this category is smoke. The more tire smoke generated by a vehicle while drifting the more points a driver will score. This category previously included the driver sticking hands/legs out the window or opening the door in a turn, but D1 now requires windows to be rolled up and prohibits door opening, demonstrating a shift in emphasis to more technical aspects of driving.

How is "Tsuiso" Battle Judged?
"Tsuiso" is the Japanese term for "Twin Battle Drift". This head to head style of drifting is judged by the same principles as a solo round. However, there is a high level of strategy behind it that provides for a competitive level and an awesome show for the spectators. The exact judging of this event is difficult to explain because the judges rely on their many years of track experience and knowledge of the vehicle dynamics when issuing the exact points.

Offensive: Generally the chasing driver has the offensive when in the Twin Battle. An easy analogy is Cowboys at a rodeo competing in the round up or two jet pilots engaged in a dog fight. They chase their prey and do what ever they can to get their target into a dead zone where the prey cannot maneuver from. This same principle is used in the Tsuiso style. Driver use their vehicle and its drift to position into a space that minimizes the running drivers ability to keep a good line while staying in a high speed drift. The chasing driver MUST at all times demonstrate a superior drift in order to A) Keep the pressure on the lead driver B) Steal and block a line that may allow the lead driver a good opportunity for a drift. C) Be awarded a superior number of points If a chasing driver is unable to keep up and maintain pressure on the lead driver this will not be good when the time comes for points to be awarded.

Defensive: When a drive takes the lead in the Tsuiso battle the ideal strategy is to perform a drift a a much higher speed, good line, and a greater angle than the chasing driver. If a lead driver can shake off or intimidate a chasing driver many times the chasing driver will make a mistake when trying to compensate for what seems like erratic actions of the lead car. When a lead driver can pull away with a good angle, following the ideal line while maintaining a controlled drift, the chasing driver has all the pressure to increase performance. The lead driver at this point is winning. Lead drivers many times demonstrate superior skill by suddenly entering a drift at a great angle and going directly to the inside of the corner. TO the following driver it appears as though they will T-bone the lead car so they back down and take measures to avoid the lead car. Many times that will cause the chasing car to loose a great amount of speed and not be able to properly execute the corner in a full drift… or even worst they may spin out or hit the barriers. This is a ideal outcome for the lead driver in Tsuiso battles.